I recently bought the book "Stretching Scientifically" by Thomas Kurz, and as AirNick mentioned in Book thread some of the stuff he says in there might conflict with our Mohm Puhl Ki warm up routine. Is this true by structure of the warm up routine, or in the way that it is performed. In particular the static stretches. I will use the numbering in book 1 of the black book series for the steps in Mohm Puhl Ki. Steps 1-7 seem compatible to Kurz's theory because they are just joint rotations. Steps 8-9 seem o.k. because they are dynmic stetches (I think) Step 10 could be bad according to Kurz if you hold for too long, because the static stretch would weaken the hamstring. But in practice our class holds it for only 10 seconds so is that long enough to make it a static stretch? Step 11 is a joint rotation, again seems to be o.k. Steps 12-15 are dynamic stretches (I think) Step 16 If performed dynamically doesn't seem to conflict, but if held statically it could. Steps 17-20 are joint rotations or dynamic stretches. Step 21, not sure what to call that one, but it doesn't seem to conflict. Step 22 I don't know how to classify that one. Step 23 is joint rotations. Step 24 is similar to step 21 Steps 25-32 are strength stretch combos that seem to fit in well with Kurz's thinkning. Step 33 would depend on how it is performed. In our school we do Ki Cho Cha Ki between steps 7 and 8. These help me break a sweat, so that seems good by Kurz's standard. So is our Mohm Puhl Ki bad, good, not optimal, or does it depend on how it is performed? If you don't have Kurz's book, that is o.k. all opinions are welcome.
I dont think it was ever billed as a "warm-up", I've always heard it to be a body conditioning exercise. meaning that the purpose of mohm puhl gi is to strenghen and stretch, as opposed to warming up/get the juices moving in the body prior to exercise.
My understanding was that Mon Puhl Ki was designed to stretch the "360" joints. I don't know about there being 360 joints (Muslim and Chinese traditions state this as fact - wonder if anyone has ever bothered to count them?), but I think Mon Puhl Ki is effective at loosening up the joints prior to working on locks and throws. Good enough to prevent injury anyway. As far as Mon Puhl Ki for stretching... IMO it is just enough stretching to maintain the flexibility that you already have, and not enough to attain the kind of flexibility most martial artists want to have. Well, for adults anyway - children seem to be able to get into the splits as a result of Mon Puhl Ki just fine. My criticism of Mon Puhl Ki would be thus: 1) Ballistic stretching is never good. 2) Static stretches are better done after a workout, not before. 3) Not enough Dynamic stretching involved. That said, I do Mon Puhl Ki every day, and far be it from me to suggest changing it.
all I know, is that on my own personal training, I always do mon puhl ki wirst, before moving to forms, and I have noticed three things: skipping, or abridging it results in worse froms doing it exactly as in class makes me do ok diong more, or longer doens't give extra benefit. so while I have absolutely no idea what the rational is behind much of it, I see results, and its short enough to not bug me. Do any of you guys thing anything in the book is mostly pointless, or pointless based on what you are doing? I'm trying to figure out what I can skip when time IS an issue, for whatever reason (rare). edit: I went to the doctor today, and I don't have cancer! yea me!
Off-topic...sorry kiseki, why is that belt not allowed anymore? What does the new one look like? Congrats on the doctor visit btw.
only the vertical stripe is allowed for non-DBN's, if I understand my instructor correctly. most of the students who tested for stripes last night got new belts with professional, sewn-on stripes (in place of the old electrical tape ones), despite the fact that I have never seen this type of belt given out in my year+ at this school. I guess its just a standardization thing, though I don't see why it matters, since the stripe is unofficial. I can still wear my normal blue belt to a tourney. Also, thanks for the doctor congrats. but we are digesting : ) I at least usually skip the neck movements when I am doing my own training, since I can't image how I would hurt my own neck.
also while mon puhl ki is the topic, for number 11 (ankle circles), someone told me for your right leg, use your left hand to rotate, and the right to press in on the pressure point between your heal and ankle bone, and vise-versa. is there any reason to do this as far as you know?
I checked the volume one text book, and as a result need to correct myself. While TCM refers to 360 joints, In Hyuk Suh refers to only 164. I'd be interested to learn where the discrepancy comes from. As for the belts, at the 2006 world tourney I saw some students who had those style belts at all different stripe levels. I can't remember which schools they were from now, though.
My instructor today said that there were 5 Houston schools with horizontal stripes on the colored belts before the ruling. Also, this decision was part of the decision to change the DBN belts already discussed in this forum.
Some Islamic guy( Ill google his name later for yall) promoting the greatness of Islam supposily quoted this from some unknown Islamic phophet's text(which the gentleman in question has never given a name to) that said there were 300 joints. Anybody in the TCM world, that has any credibility, has basically said this is rediculous. Even those of the Islamic faith. EDIT: Ok as I promosed check out the link, this is a page where the claim of 360 joints are argued. 360 joint arguement
hehe, I was talking about why should or shouldn't you press the pressure point, not why use which hand. I was a little too detailed and confused you.
The pressure piont which is at the center of your foot is a energizing piont for your leg. This is why you press it. actually there are a couple of them on the bottom of your foot. What you can do is with your thumb, start at the center of your foot by the heel and press forward sliding your thumb to the edge of the ball of the foot. most of the points on your feet are energetically important, but you have to be careful( well males dont) because there is an point on the bottom of the foot that has caused in some cases to abort a fetus.
I think, it depends. First, this all assumes that what Kurz says is THE right way to do things. He certainly puts forth a convincing argument and has a lot of research to back it up (one problem I have with his book is that he seems to make a huge effort to constantly quote studies, which is good, but I think hurts the readability and digestibility of the book). But let's go with that for discussion. If what Kurz says is the better way to stretch and warm up and so on, then there are certainly parts of MPK that run counter to what he says, e.g. all the static stretching. Plus as I've seen MPK done, there sometimes gets a ballistic motion to some movements, which isn't good. But it can depend on how it's performed. For instance, I avoid the ballistic motions and just hold a static stretch. I also don't use MPK to do a lot of actual stretching, but I do use it as a time to focus on particular muscles and work to relax them (relaxation is one thing I constantly work on for myself). For myself, if I'm doing my own "warm up", I try to stick with dynamic stretches (like Kurz mentions). But a lot of the joint rotations that MPK does I keep because they are good and do help to get everything moving. As hwarang says, MPK was never billed as a warm up but instead as body conditioning. And in doing things like bridging, the "supermans", and even the stretches, they certainly do work to condition and strengthen the body. BUT, the time in the workout where they are performed -- at the beginning of class -- THAT I think can be a problem because yes, with so much focus on static stretching (especially since different people lead the class in MPK in different ways, and some spend a lot of time doing old school long-interval static stretches), that can be a problem... again, according to Kurz's philosophy. But again, I think it depends on how it's performed because there's no one coming around to check how I warm up and bop me on the head if I'm not doing it "right", so I often will adjust things to suit my approach (e.g. I won't hold some long stretch but instead use it as a time to pull/make-taught the muscle a bit and get myself to relax into the position).
I generally start warming myself up about 10-15 minutes before class by jogging in place, doing knee raises and front/side/back kick dynamic stretching. ALOT of people in our school just jump straight into the static stretches in MPK. I don't think we spend enough in warming up before class, personally. In tai-chi we would stretch and warm up for 45 minutes before working on forms for 45 minutes to an hour. We only reserve 15 minutes of class for MPK. I haven't read Kurtz's book, but I have Ultimate Flexibility by Sang H. Kim. I'll be stopping by Barnes and Noble after work today and picking up Stretching Scientifically since it's being so highly recommended.
I also will never go into MPK cold, though many of my classmates do. I ensure that I am at the dojang in plenty of time to my dynamic exercises that I learned in high school track, jumpingjacks, and a few martial art style kicking dynamics. However, what is the point of doing MPK AFTER class?! Stretching is a great idea after class, but that isn't what its for
It seems to me that many of the strecthes we do could be ballistic, dynamic, or static depending on how you perform them. For example number 8 and 9 are two types of forward bend. If you have controlled movement to extension isn't that dynamic, where as if the movement uses body momentum isn't that ballistic? Personally if I hold a static stretch for a short period of time in a warm up, it feels great and I can kick right afterword, but if I get up into the 30-40 second range a kick right after doesn't feel good. I know that in the book these exercises are billed as body conditioning, but they are performed at the beginning of class hence calling them anything other than a warm up seems a bit odd to me. My gut feeling is that these excercises are good for a warmup but it also seems to me that it is very easy to fall into a trap where these exercises are performed in a useless manner for the purposes of a warm up, e.g. too much static stretching. For the excercises listed in the book plus Ki Cho Cha Ki, 15 minutes seems like a long time to me. For those of you who take fifteen minutes are there more exercises that you do? If not, are you sweating by the time the exercises are done? It also seems to me that this set of exercises is a bare minimum and that adding in some of Kurz's ideas especially more dynamic stretching would be quite beneficial.
I don't think it ends up being 15 minutes at my school. I do sometimes break a sweat, though, especially if my stances were hella deep during Kee Cho Cha Ki. But then I'm one of those people who sweats a river at the drop of a hat...
What exercises we "warm up" with depends on who's leading class. Many times we'll do some dynamic stretching after MPK but before we go into forms.
I'm not sure I understand the vocabulary here. For this post I'll assume the following, and if I'm wrong please let me know so I can reconsider / rephrase. ballistic - bouncing dynamic - moving into as far a stretch as you can static - holding the stretch at full extension ??? If that's the case, all my P.E. classes always told me not to bounce while stretching (though butterflies seem to be something of an exception...) The book I've used the most is Tom Anderson's Stretching. My family picked it up probably around 1988 when we were doing cross country, and I've since bought my own copy. I've worked with it in various ways for nearly 20 years, and it seems to work for me. I also started doing yoga somewhere around 1998, and continued practicing irregularly in the nine years since. So I guess I bring both of those philosophies into my mohm pohl ki practice. I usually try to make all my stretches developmental: going to a point of slight discomfort, try to relax the muscles, see if I can go deeper, repeat until I just need to hold. Despite what Satori says, I have seen some flexibility gains from my approach. We'll often follow mohm pohl ki with some kicking & striking practice, to further warm up our bodies and get the heart pumping. I have noticed that helping with classes before attending my own does seem to improve my warmups even more. Often on those days I'll do mohm pohl ki twice, maybe even three times. I've never been seriously injured in class (knock on wood), so it seems to work for me.
