Do any of you guys think that MMA is in danger of just becoming another 'style' of MA? I mean with the recent success of the UFC and the ever expanding market for MMA do you think there are gonna be more and more people looking to cash in on the trend without doing the work? We have already seen the McDojo'isng of BJJ http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=News&file=showarticle&threadid=29071 What concerns me is that we will soon see similar things happen to MMA. Too often know you hear people saying all you need to know to train MMA is BJJ and Muay Thai. Will this result in MMA becoming a psuedonym from a cross blend of BBJ and MT? To me MMA is all about finding what works and plugging the gaps. BJJ and MT IS a great base to start with, but it isn't the be all and end all of MA. Maybe this is just me overreacting and I've just been unfortunate enough to meet the few bad eggs. I'm already ashamed to say I do Martial Arts because of the stigma they have gathered, I don't wanna have to be ashamed of saying I do MMA too. Thoughts, comments and written essays on how greatly wrong I am would be very much appreciated.
I think any time any product is successful there will be a rush of imitators looking to capitalize on it. Let's face it - Martial Arts is a product. UFC is a commercial. K-1 is a commercial. Your local amateur boxing venue is a commercial. Of course there will be MMA MCdojo's(man I hate that word) if there aren't already. People will try to cut costs to get to market faster, whether the cost is in using cheaper materials in that chinese microphone or not spending the time to get properly credentialed before opening an MMA school. Short answer - it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. And it's all good.
Well, topics like this don't help: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44269 I think there is a certain fear among MMAers that people are going to stuck in the MT/BJJ rut, to be honest. Even the commentators do it. I like Joe Rogan, but every time someone uses something other than a MT kick or a BJJ grapple, he acts like it's the first time it's even been done. I remember a fight with Karo Parisyan; Rogan was so shocked when he executed a Jodo throw. C'mon, IIRC the guy was a world class Judoka! They downplay the fact that Kenpo is Liddell's base, that wrestling is the base of both Hughes and Couture... but play up the fact that they spend a few months doing MT and BJJ if they need to match their opponents. People need to focus on what is the base style of these guys and go from there. If the only thing people know about MMA is the UFC, then yeah, it's all about MT and BJJ, because it's creating the conception that those are *the* styles. Realistically, you've got former boxers and wrestlers doing this, but that never seems to be emphasized. So what am I getting at? There seems to be this idea that if your MMA doesn't include MT or BJJ it's somehow inferior. I think that it is going to become its own style, a combo of MT and BJJ. I think hux is right; it's not a matter of "if", it really is a matter of "when".
you know what - you're exactly right. I hadn't really thought of it that way, but that is exactly what happens. ugh.
What else is there? Phil Baroni is a former Golden Gloves boxer. How many of you know that? How many people knew Karo Parisyan was a world class judoka? How many people knew about Liddell's Kenpo and Kickboxing and wrestling background? He has it tattooed on his shoulder for God's sake! Arlovski started with Sambo. Stephen Bonnar started with TKD and Wrestling, then moved into JJ and Boxing before picking up MT. It's become, at least with the UFC, a matter of how good is their BJJ and MT, and they forget the other stuff these guys bring with them. Maybe Pride is different; haven't seen enough of it to say definitively, but Bas was pretty good about emphasizing techniques over style.
I know what you mean Gangrel. The whole point of MMA is to study an art and take what works and fix what doesn't. For example MT is a great striking art, but the punching isn't as good as boxing punching, BJJ is great for submission but wrestling is better for takedown (and arguably control). What I worry about is people studying a system that they believe is unbeatable but then getting knocked out because they weren't able to handle a boxer when he got in too close to kick, or weren't able to take him down.
The thing is is that because of the nature of testing what works and what doesn't the same techniques and arts will tend to come out again and again purely by virtue of the fact that they work more often. Because of that a "style" will naturally develop even when that is not the aim. That seems inevitable to me.
Yeah, from what I've seen, MMA is very much in danger of becoming a synonym for "BJJ and MT classes". If anything, it's in danger of losing the "mixed" and becoming a single style in which the striking kinda resembles MT and the grappling kinda resembles BJJ. I think this'll happen when the majority of instructors haven't trained in MT or BJJ or any other art - they've only ever trained in MMA.
How many of you know royce gracie has a brown belt in karate? I only found that out recently when reading one of his interviews in a magazine. He dont say which style though. Ray sefo is/was a wing chunner too.
This is where I think things become a bit silly though. When has Ray Sefo ever used anything resembling Wing Chun in one of his fights?!
Personally I don't agree that MMA is just about BJJ and muay thai. I think it's well past that stage now. Sambo, wrestling and boxing are all very respected styles among the MMA community, largely because of the successes of fighters who are known to use them, like Randy, Fedor and Vitor. What you say may have been true when the Gracies dominated the UFC, but that was a long time ago now.
The you really need to watch a UFC match, Timmy. If I have to hear comments about how "unbelieveable" it is that someone can execute a Judo throw, for example, I'm gonna be sick. And that was just as recently as the beginning of '05! And truthfully, if you look at many of the gyms which claim to teach "MMA", it's just a euphemism for MT/BJJ. Hell, even here, someone new says that they wanna do a good sport art, *bam* they get told to go find an "MMA gym" with accredited Gracie students and a good MT program for striking!
It's interesting though - perhaps we've seen the birth of a style the way that the early 20th century saw the birth of Japanese karate and Judo, the 1960s saw Jeet Kune Do and now the 90s/00s have seen MMA. Perhaps in the same way that most of the British karate fighters of the 1960s were hard-asses and with mass popularity came a broadening of the user-base, the same'll happen with MMA.
That sounds about right to me. In fact I think we're already seeing that in a large way. Much the same thing happened with Muay Thai. There are thousands of people training Muay Thai that will never ever compete.
If you're willing to accept a hybrid style, then yeah, this is spot-on. Won't be the first, and will hardly be the last.
I thought that was your point though - it isn't a hybrid style any more. MMA does not necessarily (in the eyes of some gym owners) mean "Mixed Martial Arts". It's a competition-based martial art which includes grappling which happens to resemble BJJ and striking which resembles MT. It isn't muay thai or brazillian jujitsu though, it's MMA! In the same way that karate isn't viewed as a hybrid of chinese boxing and jiujutsu, even though back in the depths of time, it is.
They make a big deal of Matt Hughes studying BJJ because it's greatly added to his game (his submissions have improved greatly since early in his career), but you'll rarely see a UFC match with either fighter where their awesome wrestling abilities aren't mentioned. Both that and his wrestling background have been mentioend before by the UFC... hell, before they did away with that section of the tale of the tape, his style was listed as "Wrestling/Boxing." While many disagree with the "world class" sentiment, I don't think the UFC anouncers have ever mentioned anything to suggest that Karo's bread & butter is anything but Judo, and often mention "Judo" Gene and Gokor as his trainers. - Chuck's wrestling is often cited as part of the reason why his takedown defense and ability to regain his feet is so good. Again, never questioned. As it his, he REALLY likes to use his MT skills and has consistently praised the Rickson Gracie school he trains at. Bonnar's TKD is mentioned quite often, as are his Golden Gloves accomplishments. Honestly, I haven't noticed this much. They'll often mention when someone has worked on certain parts of their game to better prepare for a certain opponent (IE- Chuck Liddell rolling with Eddie Bravo prior to the Couture rematch), but I don't tend to notice a lot of favortism towards BJJ or MT. If that were the case, they probably wouldn't have Peter Welch as an assistant coach on the Ultimate Fighter.
And here, folks, is the other side of Lei Tong's answer to me. Maybe we should poll Joe Average and ask him what "MMA" means? It would seem that even your average MAers will disagree about public perception of "MMA".
