The point of the forms don't lie in 'this is how i must use this technique', its merely a training method in which you can practice techniques as well. Apply ging to the forms and try and go from kay boon sau fa to the last one you have learn't, and man you will be drained. You learn a technique in a form and train it, in combat the situation cannot be predicted, that technique can be used but not in the exact same way you learned it, just simply in a modified way to make it more effective to that situation. As for points sparring, thats not kung fu, if you wanna train kung fu then do some chop stick training, or iron palm, thats what we replaced our 'kick boxing lessons' with. However i am still a firm believer that you need to do full contact sparring, limited rules in order to apply your techniques into combat.
Fair enough. Though it sucks that you can't compare yourself with everyone at the BKFA nationals (which is what I meant by nationals). Be interesting to see them, just to compare the level of ability with what we do. Our club produced some great fighters (well, it was started by a world champion!) and I've sparred with both good and bad like you. I tend to do decidedly average in tournaments, normally get through the first round or two but that's it. My fault really - I'm clearly not training hard enough! I disagree that points fighting isn't kungfu - If you are using your kungfu techniques (no matter how limited you are by the rules) then you ARE doing kungfu. Iron Palm may be a nice experiment in "oooo, look how hard my hand is" but for practical purposes i'd swop it for some freestyle practise any day of the week.
i wouldn't, when you punch somebody your aim should be to generate maximum impact, if your hand becomes solid, when you hit them its gon feel like a brick. Training needs to be a balance and a hard, conditioned body to me is important, when my fists hits the other person i don't want it breaking or anything happening. Training needs a balance, conditioning the body needs to be apart of the balance. Points sparring is a totally different skill where you are required to hit somebody soft, with 'semi' power. Now when your in combat, not competition, we are taught to throw every technique as if it's our last, with full intent and that means no weak techniques. Points sparring would get me DQ if i tried that.
Surely as a martial artist you should be able to control your blows to be able to hit as hard (or soft) as you like? Points sparring is all about technique, and control... Can I ask how you spar at the temple gym then? PS I tried to send you a private message about questions to ask the temple gym but you can't accept them... Do you want me to post them here??
In our kung Fu lessons we haven't for a few months, but with kickboxers we do have the opportunity to do sparring classes. They are semi contact and light continuous, however from what techniques i use in them sparring classes it is evident its not how i would in limited or no rules combat. Its a totally different skill. when i train my kung fu, i always put 100% behind each technique, and often try to do full contact free hand sparring with my cousins or mates. When i train for light continuous fighting i will do alot more kickboxing training, often going all out for 3 mins then 1 min rest etc.. My training is different, that is because its competition training. During sparring i can leave my groin exposed, have a side on guard if i want however if i train kung fu i try and get into the habit of closing off my groin, the training is different i mean i don't just throw punches i often train finger jabs, phoenix eye fist strikes and lion head fist. They can be used very effectively in combat due to their laser like precision, a punch with the fist is often a dull strike however i do train it loads from short distance attempting to apply explosive power, it is probs the simplest technique and the one used most often, one of the reasons i do iron hand conditioning is so if you block it and that fist hits your forearm, then man i still want you feeling the strike. If i want to train sparring, then their is no point and i will just practice back fist reverse or somet.
i also tried sending you a private message but for some reason i couldn't. you can post them if you want.
Done. To clear up the sparring thing - how do you spar in the kungfu class? Does the temple gym do points/continuous, or do they do freeform San Shou stuff? What I'm trying to say is that just because a ruleset changes, it doesn't mean you aren't doing kungfu. You've (presumably) learned to punch and kick in a kungfu class, and then you are applying that technique to certain rulesets. It's the rulesets that dictate your strategy, not the kungfu. There's a great essay somewhere on aliveness training that talks about this. basically says that a technique is a technique is a techniue. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch. All that changes is the delivery system (boxing, MT, Kungfu, whatever) of how you learned that technique. What I'm trying to say is unless you suddenly start throwing punches and kicks differently (and no, I don't think low contact count's as "different") then you are still doin your kungfu, albeit in a limited way. This is always the way of course: just cos you don't use all your techniques all the time - doesn't mean you aren't doing kungfu!
re: tartovski said: "However, I will say I know a darn sight more about the question of the lineages, and the evolution of the UK syllabus than alot of people." How come? I am curious. BTW, whats with the "spider sense" quotes?
we do continuous points sparring like in the nationals, their our ruleset. I agree i am still doing kung fu however when you talk about fighting, not competion (including mma) it has no rules. That is what my kung fu training is geared towards (although i almost always avoid fights on street as its wrong). When i train, i will train full contact sparring with limited rules, or san shou or somet which gives you greater freedom, i dnt believe in this semi contact point fighting, it takes away the realism of combat. That is merely my opinion, if u get in2 the habit of semi nd light contact then your not training for 'real' combat, that is only why i am not a fan of semi contact sparring.
you see I dont agree with the idea that if your training in semi contact sparring you are still earning to apply your kung fu. As if you go watch points sparring comps all of the styleslook the same, its freestyle sparring. And secondly you are learning a motor skill, repeated enough times it becomes second nature, therefore if you backfist people in the semi contact style you will ultimatley take that to the street. You backfist someone outside like that they'll fall over laughing at you! As you dont pull your punches, you learn to flick! Perferably I dont want someone to come back for more after I backfist them!!!
How come? Because I bothered to research into it and ask questions. It seems that most (or at least, quite alot) of the Lau Gar people I spoke to never questioned the lineage, or asked questions about where the forms come from, or even know the syllabus was re-aranged in the mid-eighties.
While points sparring does look quite similar, I think that is down to the ruleset more than anything. after all, a punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick. So if all the karate, TKD and KF people are restricted to that, it's gonna look similar... I don't think that is true at all. If that were the case, It would be impossible to train in full contact and semi contact at the same time as you'd always be doing the wrong level of contact. Or you'd be incapable of switching rulesets. This is blantantly not the case. I am extremely capable of fighting points, and then switching to continuous. I am able to go soft of beginners, and harder with the more experienced people; including full contact with one guy at my club. I've also fought hands only with people and managed not to kick them... One of our inststructors also teaches Self defense and (full contact) Boxing with the Met. police, and yet sparring him today, while I did get my ass handed to me he managed to a)be very controlled and b) not launch into Full contact boxing, or any of the nasty takedown techniques. I think to say "if you train light contact, you will always hit like that" is extremly over simplistic.
re: This is blantantly not the case. I am extremely capable of fighting points, and then switching to continuous. I am able to go soft of beginners, and harder with the more experienced people; including full contact with one guy at my club. I've also fought hands only with people and managed not to kick them... So are you a kickboxer, a kung fu player or both? Are you better at the kickbox side or vice versa. Which do you prefer? Do you think the "Trad kf" functional or outdated? In a fight say in bar or whatever , would you automatically go into kickbox mode or use more traditional techniques? Please enlighten me
Look back over the Lau Gar threads and the amount of petty arguments that have been started over lineage and the bannings/trolling and you will understood.
Er... both. Like quite alot of Lau Gar clubs, we spar freestyle kickboxing rules (both point and continuous). I generally would refer to myself as a martial artist, Since over the years I have done an impressive amount of styles. Admittadly some I did for about 2 weeks, but it still sounds impressive Generally the kungfu "play" comes from applying the techniques to self defense ideas, rather than free sparring. To be honest, I have no idea. It changes on a more or less daily basis. I enjoyed it all when I started, and then got very into the forms side of things in my teens. At uni I got very into kickboxing as i couldn't find a lau gar club. Now I do whatever my mood takes me. Some of it's functional, some of it's outdated - same as lots of Martial arts out there. depends on the situation. If someone swings at me and I block it, and return a swift series of strikes to end it: Is that Kungfu? Or Kickboxing? If I take someone to the floor, is that Kungfu? Or Jujitsu? I am certainly not likely to square up to them and attend to land perfect punches or high kicks though. Whatever works, works. TBH I think I'm most likely to use philosophies as taught by the Self Protection lot. I attended a great seminar with Urban Combatives which had some great approaches to self defense. Who are you BTW? Since you are asking so many questions of me be nice to know your background. Where do you train? how long, what grade etc?
Re: The names Kui, Yeeu Kui I train LGK in the UK. BKFA club Orange Sash. 2.5 yrs. I am surprised though at the amount of stick the BKFA seems to get. Why is that?
