Is KSW turning into a sissy art?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by MACA, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Yeah, well I'm not suprissed that someone could get that impression because the KS videos on the web have not been representative of the combative aspects, and are essentially Korean style XMA, or even LARP. It seems though that many KSW people I have come in contact with are actually into this and basically consider it a good thing, for whatever reason.

    EDIT: Talking about pressure testing is great, but let's not forget that we (people that post on forums) are essentially martial arts geeks and we are not the kind of people that pay the bills of the local family martial arts school. I'm not going to take my 6 year old kid somewhere where he can learn "pressure testing" beyong light point sparring (or maybe some kind of wrestling), and I think it's totally unreasonable to expect that a "family martial arts" school franchise should be turning out tough fighters.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    No I didn't. But isn't everybody nowadays! ;) Who 'qualified' you?
  3. Geetarman

    Geetarman Valued Member

    Interesting to read that, my red tab testing yesterday was about 2 hour long. All of my gradings so far have been 2-2 and a half hours and we're kept on the go at all times eg squat kicks or staying in low horse stance will other grades do their forms etc.
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Full Instructor under Paul Vuank
  5. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    I dunno, I mean KSW seems to be a great family art, but from what I experienced it was a little cult like at times (though that may well have just been my instructor).

    The videos are pretty representative of how most KSW guys train. And I'm saying this as someone who studied KSW on and off for three years and attended multiple national demonstrations and tournaments.

    The joint locks are practised the same way they are performed in public Demos, on completely un-resisting opponents (many of whom pride themselves on their theatrical ability to fly around the room when thrown), striking is done on air and sparring if present is non contact.

    ^ This is also how most tournaments are run and apparently very few -if any- KSW schools have any problem with this.

    Then again, this art caters mainly to families looking for a way to un-wind and excersise in the evening, so it's not expected to train like a smash-mouth CLF school.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter


    I agree with this which is why I clarify my position above with the caveat that it is according to my paradigm.

    When i teach kids (which occasionally I do) I make them train seriously, but do not apply the same criteria as adults. With kids I just want effort & enthusiasm.
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    ^ Same here, but this is one of the reasons I don't have kids and adults in the same class.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Agreed "Family classes" are a disaster IMO
  9. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Ugh why did my eyes have to be subjected to Tommy Carruthers's slap fighting 101 video?
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Whatcha mean by that man? :)
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Tommy is distinctly "marmite" in the JKD/MA community
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Ah right, with you man.
  13. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Also, while he may or may not be skilled, this is the kind of unresisting lightning hands demonstration presented as th3 d34dly that many of us can't stand.
  14. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Yes. What's on Youtube and what we did really doesn't even look like the same art.

    Our group never really mixed with other Kuk Sool Groups, but the few times when we did there was a little bit of a culture shock, let's just say. In over ten years I only had under five experiences with other KSW people, either going somewhere or having someone else visit our club, so understand I have small sample.

    We did non-compliant joint-lock training called "soo sparrring" where someone would basically grab you and do things like push you into walls hard or grab you and try to punch you, and you'd have to take a lock. We also free sparred with no equipment, allowing joint-locks. It was supposed to be controlled contact, especially to the head, but as you can imagine a bunch of 20 something guys sparring this way bloodied each other not infrequently. This was still before the days when MMA schools were everywhere and young guys who liked to spar still joined TMA clubs. Still, no serious injuries- except one or two broken bones over the course of a decade fro the entire club.

    One thing I will say in KSW's defense, is that I've heard adult oriented kuk sool classes at high levels in many places sems to be very focused on physical conditioning and the art itself is very physically demanding, so I don't think "sissy art" is a really fair description. But I get the picture many clubs don't learn application. I've met KSW people who look perfect when doing the training excercises (you know, the compliant numbered sets, that many people-including many insructors- mistakenly believe are the actual self-defense techniques), but when I said, "cool, let's fee-form" and started grabbing and pushing them around randomly they were totally shocked, even when done lighty.

    Now to also be fair, I've also met one guy who could do apllication training very well. He was a 2nd Dan at the time and an LEO from some school in the Bay Area, I think.

    I'm in a hapkido organization now, and I think of myself basically as a Hapkido guy with with a Kuk Sool backround. I don't hide my Kuk Sool background and have a picture of my Kuk Sool teacher in my school. I still teach the joint-locks using a few of the KSW numbered sets and do a couple of the forms, but I basically do something different than KSW these days-so I don't call it Kuk Sool. That's fine by me, because what's on the internet isn't representative of what I do and I'd be embarrassed if potential students were typing the name of my organization into Youtube and seeing the stuff that KSW groups are putting up.

    Also, on another note I think there's a place for "Family Martial Arts" where kids can work out with their moms' and dads (even though I donn't personally do them), but I also think adults' only classes are essential too.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    ^ Dr. Lecter approves this message ^
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Yes indeed, that's a fact. But there are also stories of another highly-regarded JKD instructor who likes (or at least used to like) to snort coke during the break in his seminars. And who also thought it revolutionary to line everyone up at the start of his seminars and dead-leg them – including one of my students who was suffering from Lupus. She wasn't too impressed!
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well we don't wanna know man, and if it was a snide remark to someone elses instructor I don't think anybody wants to know.

    We don't want to end up looking like the Ninja forum by talking about politics, do we?
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Used to is the operative term - and the same individual is also quite open, forthright and honest about said time in his life. It makes for some fascinating insights into human nature and how falling low one can climb high again - and who also does not need to use incidents from over 20 years ago to make a point
  19. elliotmurphy

    elliotmurphy Valued Member

    i guess a convicted felon may feel the same way, lol
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And if they've been a productive member of society since they paid for their crime then I'd hope everyone else felt the same too.


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