Is kempo really a good self defense?

Let me jump in on this one. The answer is the same for just about any art (in MMA's): depending on the day, phase of the moon, level of training, and most importantly the rules, either could.

Even in NHB like UFC, rules play a major role in deciding victory. Royce did some of his best work when there were no rules about stopping a stalled fight on the ground. In a 1:1 ring scenario, often the ground is the best location for a weaker, but more skilled practicioner to work. If the rules state that if a fight is stalled on the ground the participants need to break and face each other standing up again, things begin to shift towards the stronger individual (as the chances of them landing a technique begin to increase).

In the street things change. First of all, the floor no longer is a safe place due to the possibilities of multiple combatants and weapons. But you're also no longer restricted by a ring. So the chance of a hit and run becomes a possibility (arguably favoring the person with better technique). Also strikes to vitals are again a possibility (again arguably favoring technique over conditioning). And there are more environmental elements to use as part of the fight.

From my exposure to Kenpo (through Larry Tatum, who I think represents most of Parker's ideas) these issues like environement and motion/exit are all encorporated into the system quite well (I beileve that a Kenpo man deconstructs a situation across 7 or 9 key vectors... I think Kwan Jang can ellaborate on this a lot better that I can).

Hope this helps. BTW great posts Kwan Jang.

- Matt

 

David,
thanks for the post. After re-reading the post, what you said makes sense. I didn't see our young friend's (floor) username after siting my username. Thanks for clearing this up.
*salute*

 

One of most enlightening answers I have heard all week.
I agree with you that the possibilities of multiple attackers or weapons change situations greatly, but would you recommend kenpo over bjj to a future rape, assualt victim?

 

Thanks for the compliment. You've posed your follow up in a wierd way. If I was recommending a self defense to a "future rape victim" I'd probably suggest learning to shoot a gun or how to wield a knife, and get a big dog.

Seriously, as far as women's self defense goes, provided that the woman is only interested in learning self defense I wouldn't recommend either art. Instead I'd suggest something like Tony Blauer's Personal Defense Readiness (P.D.R.). The fact is that modern self defense arts are IMHO the best method for teaching someone to defend themselves in the shortest amount of time. The training that's stressed in those classes is far more immediately applicable to self defense scenarios than either Kenpo or BJJ. But keep in mind part of reason for that is because a modern self defense systems only goal is to teach self defense. There is no sport or traditional martial arts aspect to the training.

If forced to choose between Kenpo and BJJ though I think that it depends on both the attitude of the student and the quality of the instructor. I've seen Larry Tatum and one of his students in person and they bang hard. I've watched UFC and Pride and obviously those folks go hard as well. Personally (and in this case I mean for myself), I'd probably go with the Kenpo route. I've spent some time learning BJJ and I think it's a great system. But the way that I understand Kenpo "thinks" is more in line with how I think.

Hope this helps.

 

So you would consider yourself as more of a striker?
If so would you agree that it takes a certain amount of conditioning to do any effective damage unless striking soft targets like groin or eyes.

 

Actually I consider myself a fighter. And a scapper. So I'm prepared to do what ever it takes. I've already mentioned in a self defense discussion that my first reaction is, in a life or death situation, to bring a weapon to bare. My second reaction is to punch or kick (basically attacking limb and trunk). My final reaction is to grapple. This is only because while I have a great respect for grappling, it takes a long time and keeps my body far to close with someone I don't know anything about.

My basic reaction to any self defense situation is to keep my attacker as far away from me as possible and to try and stay off the ground if it can at all be avoided. That way I keep my escape options open and I'm less likely to suddenly find a knife sticking out of me.

- Matt

 

-As a final attempt to shed the light of reason on the darkness of ignorance, and since apparently my previous posts failed to get the point across, I will try one last time. F.I.M.F., ALL martial arts systems in their combative form (as opposed to sport form; the difference in Japanese between the suffix -jitsu and -do) by their definition would allow a weaker, smaller person to defend themselves against a larger, stronger opponent. This IS the point of having a martial art system in the first place. Whether it be kenpo, BJJ, ect.
- You have a high reverence for both Helio and Royce Gracie and that is fine. Just realize there are many others individuals in many other systems that have achieved much and are also deserving of respect. Also, you might even want to try seeing past the Gracie-marketing machine and propaganda. When I speak of this , I am not bashing BJJ. It is one of the systems I teach and have worked with BJ Penn, Ralf and Ceaser Gracie among others. Since I teach BJJ, as well as other systems, I have a good veiwpoint to both the pros and cons. One of which, is that in a real fight or self-defense situation (rather than on the mats), ground skills are a must, but IS NOT a preferred position and that is NOT just for weapons or multiple opponents. This opinion is echoed by Frank Shamrocck who many consider to be the best groundfighter in the world (and is at least the best I've trained with).

 

kenpo self defence

hi again ,sorry pt i can be a bit hard to understand at times,but i wright as i think,and thats not good sometimes,i realy would like to chat ,37 years , and parker ,we must talk,floor you get me wrong you are the one calling yourself a fighter,and i am more than capeable of defending my art ,i have thrown no abuse ,just questioned your knowledge,as you still havent told us your style,
the only ofence you have caused is lack of experience,you sound like a jkd man,i was going to wright more but have lost interest ,its going round and around,but i would like to speak more about kenpo and efective ness,maybe pt could help or thomas vince ,on what parker expected of his students,and what it was like through the 70/80and 90s and how they think it has changed,
cheers
matt
ps i like this one:yeleyes:

 

Kwan,

Could you go into the other reasons for not going to to ground. I'd love to get your views on this (especially with the experience you bring to the table).

- Matt

 

kenpo self defence

hi ,from another pospective ,we must clarify betwen ground fighting,and grappling,bjj is a grappling art with little or no strikes ,all about getting the upper hand with joint manipulation,locks ect,where as ground fighting has no intension of a tap or submision ,but to get to an effective and safe place to strike,i teach these seperate,also you can grapple whilst standing
useing similar techniques,i have tapped people whilst standing useing joint manipulation in mma,i would love to see someone grapple in a multi attack situalion on the ground i dont think it would last long ,there is no dought that guys like shamrock ,gracie ect are great atherletes and fighters ,no buts,that is there specialist field,we in kenpo specialise in street,i cant speak for kempo its not my style ,kenpo means fist law "ken"fist"po"law ,like the man said some great threads im realy enjoying all the opinions ,
cheers
matt
ps i also teach to cross the 2 ground and grapple

 

Too many people assume that in BJJ or grappling will always automatically go into the ground against multiple attackers or weapons or never ever strike or will alwasy fight fair or never ever carry a weapon or never have any friends in a self defense or street situation.

 

kenpo self defence

bjj is a ground fighting system that is the nature of the style, one on one ,take them to the ground ,manipulate a joint,force a submision,grappling by its nature mostly wont have strikes ,and most grappling systems dont do multiple attack or weapons training,its a case of horses for courses ,you dont take a cat to a dog show ,im not disrespecting these styles just unerstanding their nature,most styles are only component arts ,a part of a bigger picture,hence mma ect,many people rave bjj,its a great system,you still havent clarified your style im curios as to were you get your great knownedge ,as for questioning styles ,anyone who has taken a proper 1st deg ,stood their for 4/5 hours slogging your ass off,so many years training,dedication and hard work,3/4 times through the pain barrior,ect most of us have been there ,no matter what style ,you question it and yourself,if you have been there you will understand what im saying ,you must have 100%faith in what you are doing and your self,this also goes for entering mma bouts ,even at amature level,you would be a fool not to,
cheers
matt

 

Re: kenpo self defence

I still fail to understand where you get the idea that grapplers or bjj CANT punch in a self defense or street situation. Do you really believe that kempo would prevent you from being tackled to the ground from all sides by multiple attackers and stomped? Or kempo would prevent you from being beat down by a baseball bat or stabbed by a knife? These are the street conditions u are talking about right? There is no doubt that bjj would not be able to successfully disable multiple nonzombielike attackers, but wouldn't you benefit more from an art that teaches you to sprawl rather than a striking art like kempo?

 

-R.O_Matt asked me why with my grappling and groundfighting experience I would prefer not to go to the floor. First, let me re-iterate that I feel both groundfighting (including striking from the ground) and stand up grappling skills are a must to be weel rounded (which for me at least is a high priority). Having said that I believe that the ground is an excellent position for sport. However, you do lack mobility (which to me is one of the most important factors in any fight) and off the mats on the asphalt or other surfaces, you are going to take some damage.
-Grappling and groundfighting have pretty much become the "flavor of the month" for several months thanks to an outstanding job of marketing by the Gracie family (IMO they are really good fighters, but awesome marketers)and some others. It has given many people a false impression of what really works in a fight and what can and can't be done, including some of the limitations that have been mentioned by "Floor" on this page towards kenpo. There are good strategies and tactics for dealing with armed opponents and multiple opponents in many systems, including kenpo. Are they guarenteed? Obviously not, but neither are you guarenteed that you will successfully apply your arm bar either. Some of the rhetoric that has been thrown out by the BJJ community is not accurate and a lot of other things have been exagerated.
-I do teach BJJ to my students from brown belt up to 2nd dan as a major part of our cirriculum. That is because it is effective in it's specialty. We also teach NHB (which includes an enormous amount of groudfighting, including striking) starting at 2nd dan as part of the cirriculum (for those who want to do it earlier or compete of course they can play, but it is not part of testing before that). Espescially at the height of the popularity of the early UFC's, I had a lot of teen age and young adult men come to me and ask if we taught groundfighting and had no interest in anything else. I would take them out in the parking lot and tell them to get in their guard position and I would take the mount and we would go from there. They would look at me like I was crazy, so I reply that they were the ones who told me that "this is what really works in a fight". "Now you don't want to train it for real". Most got the point, hopefully most around here will too.

 

Maybe you misunderstood me, but i never meant that bjj would do any better in a multi attacker situation than any art.
Not a bad Idea practicing in the asspault. I usually spar on a
large rug in the living room with my brother, but usually we tend to go beyond the borders of the rug and end up in the marble floor.

 

kenpo self defence

nice one kwan,need we say more,i agree, i dont teach bjj there isnt much in the uk ,mostly guys like rick young ect,but i have tai jitsu and ju jitsu experience which i use,you are right you cant run a club without it nowadays,but there was a ground fighting system in place in parkers kenpo system,and most of the techniques can be done from the ground,we are not saying bjj men cant punch to make them rounded fighters,but your saying kenpo may not be a great self defence system because they may not be in the ufc (which is not corect anyway)a kenpo/kempo man can train in the same principles as a bjj man ,or if you are lucky enough, to train under someone who has studied all aspects of the fighting arts,its not a new way ,but a old one ,just re discovered,very few martial artist one study one style,i only teach one (well two)both kenpo.
cheers
matt
:Alien:

 

Kwan,

Thanks. I had a feeling the other issues might be lack of mobility and the surface (ie. pavement & broken glass). I just was interested to see if there were other thing.

I think you also bring up a great point that the Martial Arts, like just about everything else, are succeptible to marketing trends. Whether it's Bruce Lee in the 70's or BBJ and the Gracies in the mid/late 90's, there are lots of folks jumping on to some band wagon.

Thanks for the insightful posts.

- Matt

 

Re: kenpo self defence

Actually kenpo was in the ufc. Keith hackney had a pretty good run in the early ufc well only until he went into the ring with royce gracie, but this is not the point of the thread. The point is not alot of people have the time or money to be able to study 2 arts like bjj or kenpo. BJJ teaches the best ways to fight on your back which is probably more realistic for a much smaller weaker person then going toe to toe in stand up against a much larger stronger attacker which would probably cause you alot more pain and damage. And whats the point of trying to fight stand up if you are able to just run away in a street or self defense situation?

 

Yes, compared to a lot of the stuff ou there I'd say its quite good.
















Oh, I'm sorry, Flooris has gone completley off topic again!

Can you actually give us some background into your field of knowledge. Apart from sitting in front of the TV watching UFC and eating cheesy poofs.

Have you practiced BJJ or Kenpo?

Col

 

I do not study kenpo, but I see this question over and over again referencing one MA after the next.

The martial arts were devised as defense and fighting techniques, so by their very nature the answer to this question is that kenpo or any other martial art is indeed reliable and successful in a self defense situation.

You need to approach the study of martial arts as learning how to deal with the unexpected by developing a repatoire of techniques that will kick into gear when a reallity situation arises. You can not continue to look at an individual martial art and say "we did not cover that tech in class, so therefore this style is no good so I had better study something else". Rather, you must look at your martial art as a medium with which to learn how to be a versitile fighter, and by each and every martial art's design this will be possible no matter what art you study.