Is Judo as good as BJJ/Jiu Jitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by signeduptoask, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Took Lebell more than ten minutes to finish Savage even though they made him wear a jacket. He missed a bunch of throws as well. UFC 1 is not just a case of "Grappling vs.", Royce had a well developed strategy for applying grappling in NHB.
     
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    This…. I mean its not hard, anyone involved in the martial arts back then knows what a shock it was, I was a teacher in one of the biggest chinese systems here in the UK, no one thought grappling was any good for fighting, people were shocked by the outcome, and even tried to reject it by saying it was just thugs fighting and no one had any skill, then Royce won again and again and people, including me finally started to take notice
    Several of my fellow instructors were judo blackbelts (not that hard judo is big here in the midlands thanks to neil adams) which they started as kids, then they started kung fu and even they were surprised and they had never used their judo against other non judo guys and had fallen into the same trap as the rest of us in thinking grappling was a sport and not for the street,

    As for gene lebell lets be honest it appeared in one magazine back in the 60s, a limited run on TV, most here had not heard about it until the last few years, and this includes most grapplers and judo guys. The fact is for the vast majority of martial artists back them judo and boxing was a sport, totally different from the deadly striking martial arts most practised and didn’t belong on the same page as them, Judo moved away from those challenges that happened at the turn of the last century when it became an Olympic sport, I mean outside of Japan and those matches at the turn of the century the next one anyone can mention is in the 1960s…..and can anyone remember another one after that…. anyone??

    Judo was seen more and more as simply a sport, not a martial art. Rightly or wrongly this was how it was back then (god I sound old)
    Gene was chosen for that match precisely because he wasn’t a regular judo guy, but also a catch wrestler and boxer with some skill, he had sparred with ray robinson for lords sake,

    So was it even a win for judo, or a win for cross training?
     
  3. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    It took Royce 2.18 to beat Jimmerson, who tapped before a submission had even been applied. What's your point? LeBell won the fight.

    Of course Royce 'had a well developed strategy for applying grappling in NHB'. Maeda is alleged to have had over 2000 such contests, during which time he developed a strategy for using his Judo to beat other stylists. Renzo says Maeda passed this on to Carlos. Helio fought in Vale Tudo matches.
     
  4. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    Kimura fought Helio in the 1950's, around ten years before Judo became an olympic sport, which is not quite the turn of the century, is it? If you're going to sound off at least get your facts straight.

    Rickson Gracie has a black belt in Judo, and is the family champion, is that and his MMA wins a victory for Judo/cross training? Ridiculous.

    I agree that Judo has become far too sport orientated, but the fact it is a sport is what makes it so effective and why BJJ is also. If you look at MMA, the sport martial arts are generally the only ones that work. Boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ. There is good stuff to find even in your 'deadly' TMA's but all fighters have to have some training in the aforementioned, grappling for certain.

    Whether you like it or not BJJ, like Sambo, is an outgrowth of Judo, they are all branches of the same tree. Judo on it's own these days is weaker than it could be due to pathetic rule changes and too much focus on the olympics (and money) but the actual techniques and principles behind it are solid and it blends almost perfectly with BJJ. It's good enough for the likes of Rickson Gracie to learn, and pretty much every high level BJJ player.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  5. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    That strategy, however, wasn't standard Judo and wasn't part of Judo coaching. Nor is it likely that Maeda passed on the complete Mario Sperry game plan and Helio just put it under ice for 80 years.

    The Gracies made a significant technical study of applying grappling to real fighting that differed from Judo or wrestling, especially Rolls hierarchy of ground positions according to striking opportunities. It's not simply a case of "Oh, of course they won cause they were totes grapplers". Rickson gift-wrapping people into a GnP KO is not "just grappling".

    BTW Rickson has cross-trained Judo, but I don't think he has a black belt in it. His Judo if you watch stuff like this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTpFrjti5Q"]Rorion, Rickson & Royler at a Judo Club in 1987 - YouTube[/ame] was certainly less than amazing in his prime. Saulo Ribeiro, Leo Leite are good examples of high level BJJ guys with significant Judo cross-training.
     
  6. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    P.S. Similarly if you look at the mid-90s fights in Japan against Shooto or Pancrase guys there's a massive contrast in styles. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is not just "submission fighting", it's a conservative approach to positional ground-fighting taking strikes into account.
     
  7. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    Nice! Thank you!
     
  8. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    Nobody is disputing that. It's still an outgrowth of Judo.
     
  9. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I was under the impression that match between gracie and kimura was grappler v grappler not striker v grappler? so hardly fits in with your argument no?
    And whilst we are at it if the only example you can come up with in the last 30 years of judo beating a striker is Gene lebell, well then does that sort of prove my point?

    And Ridiculous? they chose Gene because he had a history of boxing and catch, had studied catch all his life and its ridicules? fair enough

    And where did rickson get his judo blackbelt, and how long did he study for, i know he cross competed but didnt know he had a blackbelt?

    And where did I state, anywhere anything about judo v BJJ, or not liking BJJ coming from judo? we were simply talking about the fact that back then outside of the Gracie’s and a very few others, the whole striker loses to grappler bit wasn’t a sure thing, not in the majority of martial artists or the general publics eyes, and even within the judo schools around where I was at that time it wasn’t agreed that would be a win for judo.

    This argument has nothing to do with the relative merits of judo, BJJ or where one came from??
     
  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    and who is disputing that exactly??
     
  11. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    shhhhhh...

    You can't lose taking either one. Both are very useful and very very desirable arts to pursue.
     
  12. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    Funnily enough, it was me saying that very thing that kicked off this very, very tired debate. I train both and theyre a perfect fit.
     
  13. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    OK, so what are you getting at? It's a system with its roots in Judo. Modern BJJ takes a lot from Shooto/catch, wrestling, luta livre and internal innovations/development. Many things that BJJ players know about fighting are not now and never were available in any Judo school.

    Christophe Leininger and Remco Pardoel were both accomplished Judo players in the same tournament as Royce, yet somehow neither won them. Is BJJ "better" than Judo in any wider sense doesn't have an impartial answer. Is BJJ better than Judo for MMA or NHB fighting has a pretty obvious one and it's "Yes" for any sensible definition of the question.
     
  14. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    PointyShinyBurn, I've got 1994 on the phone, they wanted me to tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the only martial art worth training, Kimura was 500lb heavier than Helio when they fought etc. etc.

    Your argument is void. There is no best style for MMA/NHB, the world has moved on. The best style today is a combination of what works. It generally includes BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing and for many, Judo. Sorry kid. The same applies for grapplers. The best tend to cross train. Even Judoka are training BJJ. It is now mandatory in some Judo clubs and most BJJ clubs offer 'Judo for BJJ'.

    By the way, you cant come with the 'this Judoka lost to Royce' rubbish. Kimura splattered Helio in one of the most one-sided beatdowns ever dished out. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is still a fantastic martial art. Sakuraba, a Catch Wrestler, has beaten four members of the Gracie family (two by submission). Royce was submitted by a Judoka in Pride. Ronda Rousey has beaten every single woman she has faced by armbar.

    Move on.

    PS. It still is, and always will be, an outgrowth of Judo, and the two sports will always be closely linked (theyre both forms of 'Jujitsu' after all)...
     
  15. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I'm far from a Gracie nuthugger, but that doesn't mean neglecting their contribution as just hyperbole.

    Yes, lots of people cross train and that's vital for success in modern, evolved MMA. BJJ is still a more fundamental contribution to that mix than Judo. If someone says "I can train Judo or BJJ and eventually I want to fight" then the right answer is BJJ in 99% of cases.

    Sixty years ago in a gi match. BJJ has changed a bit since then, and we were talking about utility for MMA and NHB.
    Freestyle/catch wrestlers prove what about Judo vs. BJJ?
    No, he wasn't, I can't believe we're still having this conversation in 2014:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X83vS_1hfvM"]Royce Gracie vs Hidehiko Yoshida 1 Replay - Premature Stoppage - YouTube[/ame]
    Also, it was gi match where Royce beat him up in the MMA rematch..
    Yes, Rousey is a bad ass. No, a modern Judoka who cross-trains extensively with BJJ and Hayastan guys doesn't mean "Go do Judo to train for MMA" is primary advice.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Significantly Helio also beat a lot of top flight Judoka quite readily which was the whole reason he ended up fighting Kimura in the first place

    Losing to the best Judo fighter in the world? hardly a negative
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Ed Lewis would have beaten them both though
     
  18. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    I'm done with this bro, you're floundering. I cross train Judo and BJJ, so do most of the top guys. Judo ftw. Im now off to Judo practice. Peace.
     
  19. Sevan

    Sevan Valued Member

    Helio drew with some Judoka too. But he was a great fighter though, no doubt about it. A true warrior.

    Kimura was much better though. :cry:
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And Rikidozan was better than him :evil:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msrAzXu440I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msrAzXu440I[/ame]
     

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