Is Japanese Ju Jitsu sufficient for self defence and competition?

Please read this first

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074423793#post1074423793

I have been training in Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu Goshin Jitsu from July last year and took time off in August due to the school closing in the summer; returned in October and did it until January-then stopped to focus on my kickboxing career (started Lau Gar Kuen based kickboxing and sport karate in 2005 but have had slow progress-only started competing in points and light contact since October 2009 and did 8 competitons so far).

Before that (back in Feb-Apr 2010) we had 2 or 3 3 hour Ju Jitsu sessions once a month at my kickboxing club to see if people were interested; before that we used to do 'grappling' after sparring in 2007-2008 (didn't do more than 6 sessions). Before I started Ju Jitsu at the Ju Jitsu club this was the only Ju Jitsu training I had-comes out at less than 9 hours.

I hate getting thrownn by the big people since it winds me. I used to always practice my breakfalls (almost always alone) in 2008-2009. Started Ju Jitsu in 2010 at Ju Jitsu dojo and with the throws over the shoulders/head, I get winded and/or don't breakfall at all!!!!

My kickboxing record is 1-0-8 and my sport karate record is 3-0-8. I still can't get over getting hit in the face even though i've only had bloody nose once and never had ribs broke/never been K.O'd. I also stop/wince in pain when I get hit with unpadded kicks!!!

MY QUESTION: IS JU-JITSU EASY TO ADAPT FOR JUDO/WRESTLING COMPETITIONS AND WILL BEING A MASTER IN IT HELP IF I FIGHT SOMEONE ON THE STREETS TWITH POWERFUL AND QUICK ATTACKS ???

 

1) If you want to compete in Judo or Wrestling then you need to do Judo or Wrestling. There is crossover and certain amount of common ground, but you don't train for Rugby by playing Soccer.

2) ANY art in the street will work if you train it appropriately....except MMA of course which is only for sport and is not deadly or dangerous in anyway shape or form no sir*










*If anyone calls me on this you are a gibbon

 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT enter a judo or wrestling competition unless you are capable of breakfalling under pressure. If you are attending a good school, they should make sure you're comfortable with landing from a throw before they'd even let you near any randori/sparring.

 

This is probably going to come across all elitist, and frankly it probably is, but I'd be rather cautious about what it is that you are actually learning. That's not to say that it's not good, or suits your purposes, but it may not be exactly what it claims to be. I'll see if I can explain.

Jujutsu (note the spelling...) is a rather generic term that is applied to a wide range of methods across Japan's history, ranging from purely grappling systems, to striking-focused arts, completely unarmed martial arts, or lightly armed methods, armoured, unarmoured, old (Koryu) or modern (Gendai), competitive or completely non-competitive, "gentle" or "hard", and so on. So simply saying "Japanese Jujutsu" doesn't necessarily say a lot about what you're training in. Fortunately, you have given the name of the system you are training in, but, uh, there are some problems there.

The name you give is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Goshin Jitsu. Now, Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is a Koryu system from the mid-1800's which is one of the major influences/contributing arts that go into making up modern Kodokan Judo (originally called Kano-ha Kodokan Jujutsu), and, like many Koryu, it really has no place in competition, and requires a fair amount of alteration to make it "street ready", and at that point it would cease to be Koryu, and the reasons for training it would honestly pretty much disappear.

Thing is, though, the school is refered to as Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, not Goshin Jitsu. There is a school out there (there's no location in your profile, so I can't tell if this is where you are refering to or not) who refer to their teachings as Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu, as a means of distinguishing themselves from the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu itself. It was founded by a man (a MR Calvin Lester)who recieved the first licence in Japan (Kirigami) after training for about two years under Kubota Toshishiro, Shihanke of the Ryu, and that was about it. He never returned to Japan to learn anything higher than that, however in creating his "Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu" he has awarded himself Menkyo Kaiden (which is a certificate, or licence, of full mastery). Their website is found here: http://www.goshinryu.org/

The other odd thing (and this may just be a typo, but it comes up often enough) is the spelling "jitsu". In Japanese, this is a completely different word to "Jutsu", being a reference to "truth", rather than "practical art", and obviously is written with a completely different kanji.

So to sum up, if what you are training in is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, then it's Koryu, and is not trained for competition, nor is it really designed for street defence. And it should look something like this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTpeCdANzA"]YouTube - Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu demo[/ame]

To deal with this last part of your post, as said it will depend on exactly what you're talking about when you say "Jujutsu". Then, it will depend on how you train it. But do remember that training for competition is very different to training for self defence/the street, so you may be better off figuring out exactly what you're after, rather than trying to force things into a place they don't necessarily fit.

 

As has been said, there is a wide variety of JuJutsu styles out there. Some will be more useful than others for Judo/Wrestling. Any training will help to a certain extent, if only to get attributes such as fitness and balance. But if you really want to be competitive, then simply take Judo or Wrestling - it's a no brainer really.

Being a 'master' (which I am taking instead to mean very proficient) will also be the same as above will regards to self defence. If will help with physical attributes, but other than that it will depend on how you train. Since there is at least the word 'Goshin' (roughly translated as self-defence) there is some hope for that style. But without further information, it's impossible to give you an accurate answer.

But to get anywhere, even to train effectively not to mention safely, you are going to have to learn how to breakfall properly. You also need someone to teach you and partners to help you learn. Breakfalling is something that can never be fully learnt or practised on your own. And even though you have been training over quite few years, your JuJutsu experience is still very limited. So I wouldn't be too worried about it now, as it should come with time and more training.

Oh, and differences between JuJutsu/JuJitsu/JiuJutsu has nothing to do with differences in the meaning in Japanese - it is simply due to differences in the romanisation of the words. They translate with the same meaning.

 

Actually, no, they're not. They are actually different words, with different meanings. Jutsu was mistransliterated incorrectly as "jitsu", and a range of modern Western variants use it still, however it is frankly incorrect for anything Japanese. This goes triple for anything old, with a Ryu as part of the name, and especially Koryu forms, as a result it's a huge red flag if that is being used by the group itself (as said, it appears once in the original post, so may simply be a typo).

For reference to the different words, "Jutsu" refers to, in most dictionaries I've seen, a "practical art", and uses the kanji 術; "Jitsu" refers to "truth", and is often written with the kanji 実. Different words, with different meanings, and different written characters. For a similar idea, think of a Japanese person wanting to write something, and asking to borrow your pin.

 

I'm confused.

Sensei says we learn Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jiu Jitsu BUT he calls it Goshin Jitsu on the official paperwork/grading certificates. It is for self defence and street fighting but Sensei is 7th Dan in that and 8th Dan in Judo, which he teaches to kids.

I live in the UK-Andover,Hampshire. Sensei's ex-prized student opened up his own Goshin Ryu Ju Jitsu club as well-he was the ex-prized student because he got 5th Dan from another organisation when he was only 1st Dan in Sensei's club and he tried to take over. The thing is that this other guy's club is actually an MMA club but they wear black gis to train.

 

I get used to light contact but fear creeps back in if a) I get hit hard in the nose b) I get rattled with a heavy hit or c) I take more than a month of competing (but I still train though)

 

Yeah, I can get why there'd be some confusion. I came across a couple of sites mentioning "Goshin Ryu Ju Jitsu" as being based in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, suffice to say that the descriptions didn't fill me with much hope about authenticity, or at the least, understanding (saying that jujutsu is best thought of as a combination of Karate [for striking and kicking], Aikido [locks and holds] and Judo [throws and hold-downs] as well as the consistent mis-spelling), and I got less than good feelings about it.

I would repeat the question of whether what you train in looks like the video I provided earlier... mainly because if it doesn't, it isn't Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, no matter what the instructor is saying. More likely it's similar to Calvin Lester's approach (or possibly related to it) where a limited knowledge of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is being used to support the teaching (for the record, I have come across reports of Kubota Sensei being less than thrilled with Mr Lester's website there....), where the use of the name is not really legitimate. Of course, Mr Lester is apparently in the US, rather than the UK.

Goshin Jutsu, as Righty said, basically just means "self defence" in Japanese, and is a fairly modern term, so if the school is teaching a modern adaptation of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu with more of a modern focus, that means the name will make some sense (only partly, though.... the use of the Tenjin Shinyo name is still a little suspect to my mind, as is the affectation "Ryu"). I'd still expect correct spelling, though.

In terms of your issues with contact, that is honestly something best addressed by your instructor. They will know why you are training, what the situation is, what form of competition and so on, which we don't. The standard advice is to just keep going, and eventually you'll get used to it... but honestly that's not much advice for you. There are a series of drills that can be done to help acclimatise yourself, but again it's best done with your instructor. I will suggest looking at adrenaline training, as very often it's actually the adrenaline which is mistaken for fear, as when it is not recognised, there is an attempt to put a value to it (emotionally), and the lack of recognition has it classified as fear, when it may not actually be.

 

ronki23,

You might benefit from reading up on koryu.

As it is I feel that without a core understanding of what these arts are about and why some of these issues are being highlighted then you are going to be confused, not only about your training but why Chris is saying what he is.

 

That's putting it mildly. He was rather angry when this was brought to his attention.

There was a rather lengthy discussion about this on e-budo. Some of it wasn't pretty.

Time to start doing some homework then ronki. If he's an 8th dan in judo, his name and rank will be listed with the BJA (British Judo Association) and the Kodokan HQ.

Also, find out which jujutsu association he is affiliated with.

That should shed light on some answers.

Hope this helps.

 

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...er#!/group.php?gid=13988571363&v=photos&so=30

This is the only information I have available. BUT from what I know, we are NOT affiliated with British Judo Association and Sensei was graded by the Japanese and he has a cream and red stiped belt.

 

Hmm. That's not very encouraging, unfortunately. I take it that you don't recognise much from the above video?

 

Shoes on the tatami ..poor etiquette

Smurf

 

More importantly, staph and ringworm. On your face. Not cool.

 

Would you happen to know which Japanese teacher graded him?

The list of foreign 8th dan judoka is very short.

Do you have his name? I can easily find the listing then.

If you are uncomfortable about naming him here, you can PM me.

 

Why? Does it matter if it is or is not pure Tenjin Shinyo Ryu? As stated before, I do not know how traditional it is since his ex-student has opened up his own Goshin Ryu club and slowly it is phasing into a MMA club-the kids,etc. still wear gis and have gradings but the adults are all about cage fighting-he himself holds events.

Actually, here is an excerpt from my grading booklet I found-it's the only descriptive part

JU-JITSU

"In Europe and most of the world today, there are two main divisions of this ancient art, the modern system known as Goshin-Jitsu, and the old,ancient and traditional system known as Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu of old Japan. The former (mistake? Did he mean latter?) was perfected at the Kodokan (the supreme authority on Judo) founded by Dr.Jigoro Kano, a most learned professor of higher mathematics who formed his eclectic system of stylised Judo with the founding of the Kodokan Judo Institute in 1882"

As stated before, in this club we need to know the Japanese,wear our gis neat and tidy, have to do kata,know first aid, etc. so I don't think it's Goshin Jitsu-I assume he calls it that because he also teaches Judo. Actually he grades Aikido students and students of Goshin Karate-Jitsu.

EDIT: Sensei says he also learned a style of Ju-Jitsu called Tenjin-Ryu which is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu minus weapons but we are still learning Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I don't know why he calls Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Goshin Jutsu

Hansei Mackenzie Smith-look on the facebook link-I think it shows the organisation which graded him if you go down the wall

 

Otherwise, I know Ju Jitsu is good at stopping the opponent/generally striker beats grappler but I problem I myself face is flinching/turning away from shots,wincing in pain (when in kickboxing) I get kicked hard in the leg or back with unpadded kicks-would this affect me pulling of a throw/closing in on opponent to lock him up in real life?

 

Hi ronki23,

Well, that will depend on you, really. But you should be aware that anyone with a Koryu background will see the name "Tenjin Shinyo Ryu" and expect it to be legitimate, which can lead to your instructor being called a fake, fraud, charletan, and so on. Which, if he is claiming to be teaching Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, and isn't, might well deserve such labels being leveled at him, frankly.

Now, the important thing to note here is that this is about personal accountability, a sense of personal honour, integrity, and so on versus using titles, terms, names and so on that are not deserved, and it really has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the instructor is a good teacher, whether he knows how to do anything, whether what he's teaching "works" or not, as that has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of the claims. And using the name of a well-respected Koryu art, especially one so well known, is a sure way to get disliked in Japanese martial circles. And that can reflect badly on the entire school, the instructor, and the students there. If you're not concerned, that's fine (well, no it isn't, but it's not your issue), but be aware of the responces the name will generate.

For the record, though, the thing that wasn't very encouraging was the belt. I've never come across a "red and cream" belt in any ranking system at all, and Judo occasionally uses a red belt for Mastership, but that's as close as it gets (Dan grades, even up to 10th, still use black).

Yeah, it sounds like the only thing relating to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is some extrapolation from some Judo, and that's it. Especially as you've not answered whether or not the video shows anything familiar, which makes me think the answer is "no".

Frankly, there is a lot of misinformation and frankly incorrect material, even in this little excerpt that my concerns about the legitimacy is getting more and more confirmed.

First off, if you need to know the Japanese, why is the term "jitsu" being used? First rookie mistake, and very easy to spot, really. Next, "goshin" refers to self defence, and can relate to pretty much anything that may fit that criteria. But your instructor also grades people in Aikido and Goshin Karate-"Jitsu"? On what basis? I haven't seen any mention of any related ranking himself there, and to be absolutely clear here, "Goshin Jitsu"/"Goshin Jutsu" is a generic name, like Jujutsu, not a specific style that gets applied, and certainly not something that crosses arts the way that sounds.

I went through the page (and visited Mr Smith's page as well), and saw no mention of any organisation, can you point out where it is?

Not sure what you mean in the bolded section there.... if a striker beats a grappler (not sure where that comes from, by the way.... although I'd guess a striking based instructor), why are you training in a grappling system?

I'm going to be blunt here, and I really don't mean to offend or upset you, but I also recognise that that is a high probablility. You have only a few choices. Talk to your instructor so they can guide you through this issue; push yourself through it; or go out and get into fights to find out. But I will say that with this amount of questioning going on, then yes. I would put no money on you, at this point, being able to do anything whatsoever under the stress and adrenaline of a real assault. I think you have an unrealistic take on the way arts work, what they are good for or not as well suited for, I think you're looking for a magic answer which doesn't exist, and I think that frankly your instructor is coming across as far less than they claim to be (which could be a major part of the issue).

One last time, without knowing really what you're training, why you're training it, what the focus of the school is, how it trains you, and in a lot more detail than given here, there is little more we can say. And honestly, even if you could give more detail,, odds are that there will be little to nothing we can offer anyway, as these are issues that you need a competant, insightful, knowledgable instructor to guide you through.

 

Ronki,

Your system doesn't appear to be what those teaching it are claiming.

This might be hard to hear especially coming from a group of people who you don't know but it's true. Places like MAP see this a lot, a student comes on board and gets told stuff they probably don't want to hear by people they don't know the thing is on MAP we have people who are rather knowledgable about such things and they tend to be able to spot problems with information and claims.

Please take your time to become familiar with Koryu and specifically Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu but use sources outside of your Dojo.

This isn't us having a go and we're not out to get you or your club in fact some of us are very concerned when we see people are being miss led hence us taking the time to point these things out.