Is it me, or is it anyone else?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by 47MartialMan, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I haven't been around MAP, on weekends I have been helping at a friend's house, Justin, to take care of his dog. The weekends are my shift split amongst his family members. I also took the time to get on some "gun forums", to do some research-interaction. From a near recent incident per a thread, either I must be getting old and changing my ways of thinking, or I always re-think things. Or is it that people do not approach things looking upon opposite views as I do

    As per that thread, which it was about a friend Stephen whom has a brother, Justin - became victim of a shooting. As Justin was in the hospital, the court-police finally released Justin's carry firearm. Stephen took it to Justin's home, because his mother was there, she did not want it around her. His brother did not want to take it to his home, because he has kids. They both acted like it was a highly venous snake. I stepped in and told them I could remove the ammo, but they still argued to each other about it being around them. Therefore, I had suggested that I take it to my house and lock it in my steel gun vault until Justin's full recovery. They were relieved.

    I started to think, as it was always a subject of mine, about guns in a society. In its entire history, the U.S. had guns as part of its society, and gun violence, be it a single murder happening every day throughout a year (even in one city), to mass shootings (which also was happening since the 20's) . Gun violence was really at its peak in the Wild West when finally, towns, city, and government, action was taken about open carry. Open carry, or personal carry, the mindset of this, even today, will have its pros or cons

    On a gun forum, I was starting discussions on gun ownership, carry, types of guns, high capacity, and general feedback. I must say, like almost any subject, including martial arts, people get offensive. I guess it is human nature to do so about something one has a passion for. I have a passion for both, but I guess as I aged, I have become less offensive, or try to, and I make every effort to keep a friendly demeanor

    I also took a consensus, interviewing relatives (large extensive members on both sides) and people at work

    My findings were not surprising to me, but surprises others, especially those who seem to shun my data and instead, remain jaded in a state of denial (IMHO)
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Apart from hunting, according to my consensus when speaking to gun owners, is protection from a life threatening attacker. The main reason for owning a gun, the idea of a home boogey man or an attacker, is subjected to the culture or environment which one is residing or part of. My past places of employment, which some places averaged 30-60 workers, when I spoke to them on subjects of defense (which I was teaching RBSD at that time) the majority did not have intruders and as rare, none were in a fire fight.

    I think a lot of people thinking about home intruders are following anecdotal fallacy or border line paranoia. All I ask is someone to take reflection of themselves per their life span, look upon the "people they know", and take a consensus of how many were involved in a home intruder, rape, public firefight, etc. Whereas I am not saying it is not possible, again depending on the culture-area-environment one is in, the percentages are interesting per EACH consensus category

    I Separated each category:
    Self Defense
    Home Invasion
    Home Robbery
    Car Jacking
    Actual shoot out
    Being Shot-Shooting another
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It is not paranoid if it is true :evil:

    I think that perception changes based on knowledge and experience. Your knowledge has changed your perception to look at thing realistically. Most don't need firearms for situation that will likely never happen.

    However, think of those that come and stay in self-protection training as being a minority. It is actually the few that affect the masses.

    What I mean is that those few that are prepared and handle firearms responsively can affect perceptions. How many would be bad guys don't commit a crime because of the risk of the consequences? I would call that a deterrent.

    If it was known that the victim would always fully cooperate (no deterrents). How does that affect crime rates. I think it would rise and there would be more repeat offenders.
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Anecdotal fallacy, any type of heuristic, the "availability heuristic" in media, have a double standard. On the subject of guns or gun violence, people who are in fear of guns, will use information to establish a thought process to look for heavy legal legislation, including proscription. However, on the opposite, people that are pro guns or own guns, will use the same heuristic and believe they need to have one for protection and obtain conceal carry permits, being superfluous.

    I think the whole issue is borderline paranoia. I say "borderline" because I still think there is a need. I don’t think the need is as great as people tend to believe. It is all about what environment one is going to be subjected to. This said, indeed, if someone is going to be or reside around a bad part of town-yes. If someone is going to exposed to that type of violence, for example, a police officer-yes. But strange, you won’t have it at sporting events. You won’t have it on a plane, and not when your plane arrives at its destination. Again, the point being, that the need is going to reflect the environment/culture
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Good points. I've never been shot at, but I've also never been in a fist-fight. Yet, for two decades my hobby has been martial arts, and I admit that a big part of why I got into martial arts was self-defense. Borderline paranoid? Well, for a long time I even carried a knife everywhere (I don't anymore) so maybe I was borderline paranoid. But if I should be allowed to continue my training even now, then ... then I won't say "no" to the person who wants a gun for the same exact reason that I got into martial arts, and for the same exact reason I used to be armed myself.

    Some like guns, some like knives, some like boxing, some like wrestling, some like wing chun, some like tkd, some like [etc]. They're all the same answer to the same question, I think.
  6. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Guns kill people. So does swords, knives, etc. There is the argument that these other weapons do not do this on a mass scale. But this would be like saying no one is out to kill anyone. Guns certainly have a huge effect on murder rates throughout a society that has gun violence. Many of these guns involved in crimes are illegally attained. For average people, some believe they need guns in order to protect ourselves from the criminals which by definition do not follow laws. Imposing more gun laws will not prevent gun violence, which is a illegal act of not following the law in the first place. Some information people "tend" to use as factual, is that places where there are more gun owners there is less violence. Shootings in gun free zones do happen. The problem is how do we decide if someone is unstable? How does a society, so entrenched with guns, prevent a person from killing?
  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    If I recollect correctly, the violence of the Wild West is really a historical inaccuracy. I'd be very surprised if we were not living in the peak of gun violence, even if this is strictly related to the population size.
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Hate to be pedantic but the mid seventies to the early nineties were significantly worse than now.
  9. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I disagree, the population of the country is the difference. Per capita? For the sake of accuracy, to help me...any sources?

    For the sake of accuracy, to help me...any sources?
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The Culture of Violence in the American West: Myth vs Reality (Dilorenzo 2010)
    America's Faulty Perception of Crime Rates (Eisen and Roeder 2015)
  11. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    From a logical perspective the most famous shootout in the Old West was a 30 second 4 vs 5 confrontation in which 3 people died. Those numbers would have been depressingly ordinary in LA in 1990.
  13. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    The argument that criminals will get guns doesn't really make sense given the fact that they are receiving guns that have been manufactured to satisfy a gigantic market of guns. This seems to be avoiding or neglecting a discussion on gun regulations such as finger print scanning technology or mandatory gun safes. Open carry laws have contributed to delayed police response to mass shootings because police were not dispatched until the shooter started firing. So yeah, first step, allow the CDC to conduct federally funded research on gun violence.
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Thanks, I really appreciate any feedback or help

    The idea that guns provide a means by which to level the playing field. A 130 pound unarmed woman doesn't stand a chance against two 200 pound men, but one who has been trained to use a firearm may be able to intimidate her attackers and create the space needed to escape. Notice how drawing a weapon does not necessarily lead to killing. It "could" be said, that guns are tools that allow their users to defend themselves against harm and oppression. Without some tool that provides stopping power, intimidation, and a way to put distance between a intended victim and a threat, the law abiding American citizen is at the mercy of criminals

    Almost likewise to insurance, either you are prepared, or you are not. If someone is going to carry, they should get optimum training. People need to understand, that to carry, it does not create a bullet proof shield from being shot. If a martial artist is prepared to fight, shouldn’t a person that is in a gun violent society, be prepared with a gun? Learning how to fight, in case there is a need, is like owning and training with a gun, in case there is a need. Both are an example of fighting fire with fire. What if a person, for some reason, cannot fight, or will not have the ability? Wouldn’t owning and training with a firearm be better? And no one, except law enforcement can carry everywhere. Such as court or perhaps work. If you are going some place and feel that you necessarily need it there, you should be evaluating why you are going there. And is there a need to head that way. Simply, common sense to any type of violence, be it bodily defense or with a firearm, applies before the actual action
  15. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I actually had someone complaining the a few days ago about a bill introduced in Minnesota. If it goes through people will have to lock up firearms and ammo separately, pass a training course before being issued a firearms license, and conduct all transfers through an FFL dealer so they can ensure both people are legally allowed to own firearms.


    It seems ironic to me because the argument so often is:
    Criminals will just get guns anyway

    Which is immediately followed by:
    The government better not add or improve background checks or make sure transfers involve background checks or have us register our firearms

    Of course the criminals will get firearms if you do absolutely nothing to stop them getting them! :bang::bang::bang::bang: DOCTOR DOCTOR IT HURTS WHEN I DO THIS!:bang::bang::bang::bang:
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It's Insane that this already hasn't happened.

    The only reason to ban research, would be to suppress the truth
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    However statistically a man is twice as likely and a woman 3 times as likely to be murdered if you have a gun in the house, and you're nearly twice as likely to kill yourself with said gun than you are to be murdered.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's a shame there's not some equivalently developed society with almost complete gun control with almost no gun murders that could be examined to see if and how gun control works..........
  19. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah, as if such a place could possibly exist?
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Or even one nearby with a few restrictions and far less firearm violence

    *cough* Canada *cough*

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