Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by tengu666, Jul 25, 2005.

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What training methods & drills you use on your training?

  1. bag work

    12 vote(s)
    37.5%
  2. focus mits

    14 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. kata - drill (with/without weapons)

    23 vote(s)
    71.9%
  4. kata - exploration (creativity, henkas, with/without weapons)

    25 vote(s)
    78.1%
  5. randori (sparring, opponent with MEDIUM, FULL resistance, with/without weapons)

    22 vote(s)
    68.8%
  6. sparring - FULL contact, FULL resistance, opponent use tactics while attacks

    11 vote(s)
    34.4%
  7. emotional aspect (scenario-based training)

    23 vote(s)
    71.9%
  8. ground fighting

    20 vote(s)
    62.5%
  9. other

    16 vote(s)
    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    sounds about right to me Spooky but then me compared to Dale and Ben's collectice wisdom i'm a Kyu grade!
     
  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    LOL
    How the heck do you think I feel!!! :D

    The old tales of Musashi have come to mind....about how he would turn up late for duels so as to have control of the position he was to take and the time he was going to do battle!
     
  3. zanflad

    zanflad Banned Banned

    Gary i am not dishing the Bujinkan nor your classes, as for the other ninja's round here, i dont crap one way or the other,

    and no i dont want to train full speed and full power, people are going to get hurt if i do that.

    but i see the that dealing with fear and adrenalin is where my training has been lacking,

    its a mental thing, you need to beat the fear, and overcome the greatest opponent (your self)
     
  4. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    Right, now i see your point!

    Fear comes from a real situation, therefore you need to experience it, over and over.

    No easy answer my friend. If we train with someone we know, ie we are friendly with, we know there are limits. but how to remove those limits in a safe way, now thats a question and begs a good answer.

    :)
     
  5. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Yep, you're on the, um, ball with this!

    You use the space primarily to create the conditions so that you are able to hit, lock, or throw him without his being able to do anything about it.

    At the same time that you're doing this you're also denying the opponent sensory data that he needs; giving deceptive visual and tactile information, even giving conflicting sets of data; while also causing him to balance himself. (If you unbalance him, using kuzushi, he may find a way to regain it and thwart you -- but if you cause him to unbalance himself, using kukan, he's confused because he doesn't understand what's happening.) The opponent is lost in a fog of illusion and confusion.
     
  6. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Hmm...

    Let me start out by saying that I believe that everything that Soke is teaching is (1) bound by human physiology, (2) bound by physics, and consequently (3) attainable through proper training.

    Situation 1 (Bad Taijutsu): You stand in front of me and grab my shirt collar. I grab your wrist and try to pull your hand off my collar. Yet, it doesn't come off! No matter how hard I pull and tug, if you resist me, there is not way for me to remove your hand!!!

    Situation 2 (Kuzushi-based Taijutsu): You stand in front of me and grab my shirt collar. Realizing that if you are resisting, I cannot remove your hand, I decide to "affect" you.

    I could try opening my hand in front of your eyes, saying "Pow!" as in metsubushi to get your mind off your hand. Or I could kick you in the shin so you think about the pain in your leg rather than your tight fist. Both of these are "mental kuzushi."

    Alternatively, I could step one leg back, taking your balance somewhat, before trying to take your hand off. This is "physical kuzushi." Physical kuzushi works on the principle that you need a solid base from which to create leverage or "push off" in order to counter. If I get your balance on one foot, you have less to "push off" from and lose your grounding. Because you cannot push off from the ground to keep a hold, your only choice is to pull me tighter to keep from falling. I can use that to advantage, or you could end up using that pull to punch me, take me down to the ground, and so on. Your description runs through the various counters that are possible from a physical "kuzushi-based" Taijutsu perspective.

    Situation 3 (Kukan-based Taijutsu): You stand in front of me and try to grab my shirt collar. I use a combination of footwork, hips, knees, and spine, combined with certain timings to affect the way you are grabbing me BEFORE you grab me. I manipulate the space in order to control you. I can make it so you cannot quite reach me, or I can make it so you CAN reach me, but on my terms. This means that you will not have control of your body when you actually make contact (or don't make contact). This means that there is no way for you to resist, because you are not the one controlling your body. I am. :D

    This is just one example, but it captures well the issues at hand.

    They are probably still working from a "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu."

    In all honesty, it is all but impossible to "resist" against "Kukan-based Taijutsu." There is nothing to resist against. Moreover, you are not the one in control of your body. :rolleyes:

    -ben
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2005
  7. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Good point, Dale. I didn't go into that aspect, but it is very unnerving for those who have experienced it.

    But I believe my example shows how control can be taken away from the attacker, which makes any potential "counters" moot.

    -ben
     
  8. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Yes, it does -- very well done.

    I think we make a pretty good "tag team" even though we're on opposite sides of the country. :)
     
  9. thomaspaine

    thomaspaine Valued Member

    Can someone please tell me why people in the Bujinkan think that people who do MMA are Cobra Kai wannabe a-holes? It is usually the a-holes who take a few MMA classes and then quit because it bruises their egos to be constantly forced to tap out by guys half their size. The guys I train with are some of the friendliest guys I've ever met, and if you watch an MMA fight the guys will hug and shake hands afterwards. It's a bit aggravating to be stereotyped as some toughguy with something to prove just because you like to compete. Proving to yourself that something is effective and that you can pull it off against a fully resisting opponent is quite different than proving to the rest of the world that you're a big bad toughguy, and from what I can tell the latter are an incredibly small minority.
     
  10. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Now now, not all of us think that way. I don't for one. However, there are some folks who have posted here in the Ninjutsu forum, that do MMA, and think because of the way we train they can kick our butts. Having never fought one of us, and despite the differences in why we train. I know, I was invited several times to go to a "Smackdown" and "test" myself. I declined. Not my bag. I've tons of respect for any MAist who trains and enjoys what they train in. I have tons more for those same MAists that repsect my desire to do something different from them.
     
  11. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Please note Thomaspaine, my post was directed to Zanflad, who i know. Therefore it was a suggestion to him, as something that might benefit HIM, not directed at anyone else and to my knowledge i have never referred to MMA'ers as you put it as 'cobra kai etc'

    please direct your comment to those posters who do post negatives as per your post and not me!

    Gary
     
  12. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    Is what you are refering too a case of changing the dynamic of the attack. What I mean is the altering of the opponent's timing / distance / balance such that their attack becomes ineffective.
     
  13. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    Thanks Ben for taking your time! Really appreciate. What are you talking is what I first learned in Gyokko Ryu - where Kosshi (startegy of this ryu) is just like you described Kukan Taijutsu. As my teacher said, you want him on your playground! But does that strategy applies everywhere? As I know other ryuha have other strategies, for example Koppo (strategu of the Koto ryu) is to break a backbone of the attack - what would you probably call Kuzushi taijutsu.

    Moreover, this is possible only in ideal situations. If you have extra fast MMA fighter: 1. you can't take his space or balance easily, 2. he is not stupid to unbalance himself while attacking (that's common in BBT, but if you see NHB fights, very unlikely!), 3.you will not be able to evade him forever. Bottomline, it sounds promising in theory, but I'm sceptic how it would look like in practice.
     
  14. James L

    James L Valued Member


    Tengu666,

    MMA is a sport. The fighters (some) are very skilled. None the less, they are not training for the street.

    I recently watched a MMA dude get beat down in a bad way not too long ago. He had his leg damaged during a low roundhouse, caused by someone who knew what they were doing blocking with knee. He collapsed forward on the leg, clinched, and went down. He ended up in the guard position, at which time the person, who managed to keep their spine straight and not be pulled forward, punched the MMA guy in the nuts, crawled over him to mount, and beat the ever loving tar out of him before it was stopped.

    Incidently, I have also seen a BBT guy go down in a bad way in a different situation.

    I have witnessed a BJJ dude absolutely decimate some street fighter dude who attacked him. It was one of the most dominating things I have ever seen. The dominance ended when a dude from the crowd broke a bottle over the BJJ dudes head and boot stomped him.

    I have watched a co-worker who trains in BBT deal with a violent attacker without injury, and with very little need for severe damage to his opponent.

    I personally am not impressed by MMA guys, anymore than I am impressed with any other sporting athelete. I respect the hard work and training that they do, and I respect the skills they use in the limited confines of time limits, gloves, rules, etc. I personally felt that the UFC type events went downhill around 1995 or so when the rule changes came on. Watch UFC 1-4 .... the best of the series.

    The bottom line, is that I see from your profile that you are about 28 years old, and have been training for around 15 years or so (some of it as a youngster obviously). You are very strong willed in your statements (which I respect), but I see you pushing the same old argument over and over with someone like Dale, who has military experience, executive protection experience, and has been training in martial arts longer than you or I have been alived. I gotta respect Dale's opinion on this, as well as some of the others who have used BBT in the real world with satisfactory results. This is not to take anything away from your training, but I am not sure why this conversation is even going on still....

    This thread appears to go round and round, with the outcome always being the same. You have asked your questions, they have been answered, and you have replied with many different statements, many of which were along the lines of "well, try that with a MMA dude and see where it gets you", or "yeah, but...."

    You have asked if BBT training methodology is effective. People, who use the skills in the real world (not on the mat), have said yes. What more do you want?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  15. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    From a personal note, I train in the Bujinkan system while my brother studied Wu Shu. My Wifes brother studied TKD and his best friend attends regular MMA classes for many years.

    What I'm getting at is that we all get together on occasion and go head to head at our local gym that has a large padded area. Being very close, sometimes we goof around but there has been many a time when a stray hit has landed a little too hard or a lock applied with a touch too much force and things have become a little more serious. We have all been training for roughly the same number of years, and I can't say that one style over-ruled or dominated an other.

    From a Bujinkan point-of-you, when I train in the dojo I see every partnered session as a battle inside my head. I ask my partner to see what he could do from different points in the kata so I can examine the flaws in my technique...at home I spar with my brother and get him to play devil's advocate but it doesn't feel too different from how I train in the dojo.

    Nevertheless, I've found what I have learned to be quite effective in combat when sparring with these guys. When someone comes at me, and I have realised that they are not going to be an easy opponent to overcome, I tend to flank to their outside and strike, softening them up. When they turn around to face me, I step away, giving me space, or flank again so that I am standing at their back, frustrating them. Once frustrated (usually pretty quickly) it's not hard to deal with them from there.

    Now my brother has seen me do this a dozen times if not more, and experienced many of them, yet there is no way he can avoid it. My brother-in-law has his second dan in TKD and has always commented on how effeciant he feels my style is. He now uses alot of our flanking and side stepping when he trains.

    What am I saying? Hell if I know. I feel like I'm rambling!..ha ha...but I think what I'm trying to get at here is that yes, Bujinkan training IS effective in real fighting, it just comes down to where you mind set is when you fight and when you train.
     
  16. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Hmm...

    Anyone who has trained with me knows that I LOVE Koppojutsu. I really feel that the ability to read the skeleton and control it is at the foundation of our art. I do not seem to have any difficulty in applying "Kukan-based Taijutsu" in any of my Koppo, Koshi, Jutai, etc.

    This is not an issue of speed...

    Well, if you are skilled you can. :rolleyes:

    All kidding aside, if you are fighting someone who ALSO understands Kukan-based Taijutsu (regardless of their martial art background), it will be most interesting. I personally do not fight the individual. I fight for control of the space, and I strive to manipulate these balls of kukan in the environment. If someone else is also trying to do that, then we have a fun match, I'd say! :D

    You see it everywhere--in NHB, on the streets, in BBT dojo, in BJJ dojo.... When you are battling someone who is not battling you (but instead the kukan), it is VERY different....

    I recently decided to test one of my students. He had been working on his striking and was convinced that he had gotten very good at striking. I asked to come at me with anything and at any speed he wanted. After several minutes of continuous striking (that's a lot of punches, btw) and feeling the manipulations of the kukan, he pulled back his fist to strike, then screamed in frustration, "I can't <deleted> HIT you!!!" and gave up. Defeated.

    When Soke speaks about taking away someone's will to fight, this is what he is talking about, imo. I made it clear to my student that he could NOT hit me if he had wanted, and I could have picked him apart at will. He was "defeated" but I never laid a hand on him.

    My student subsequently decided to redouble his training efforts so as to be able to hit me next time I decided to test him. :D He knows through his own experience that this seemingly "fluffy stuff" about controlling the Kukan actually works. And he is committed even further to being able to do the same thing when people try to bring him harm....

    When you write that we cannot "evade forever," you presume that Dale or I are just flitting around like butterflies. I assure you that someone who is controlling the aggressor through the manipulation of the Kukan can decide at any point when to "end" the dance.

    *THAT* is the martial art that Soke is teaching! I hope you can experience the feeling first-hand some day!

    -ben
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2005
  17. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Addition

    I feel I should add two more things for clarification.

    First, my posting about the "punching test" does not mean that I never expect to get hit. I feel that in a striking fight, one should expect to get hit. In a knife fight, one should expect to get cut. These are "real expectations" given the danger involved.

    However, getting hit is not the end of the world. The day I find someone who can hit me with more power than Nagato-sensei ever did in his weekly beatings, er, trainings :rolleyes: is the day that I mark on the calendar. I feel that people SHOULD be used to getting hit and having their skeleton feel the strikes. This is the *THUD* in my mantra.

    Irrespective of getting hit or getting cut, the issue is always survival. So long as the knife wielder does not get something vital, I *HOPE* to survive. My ability to control the kukan should help my chances more so than hurt my chances, imo. At least, that is the expectation. You may not think this is a realistic expectation, but I am convinced it is, and I am betting my life on it seeing how "Kukan-based Taijutsu" is the only thing that I train/teach. :D

    Secondly, and equally importantly, is that one need not "engage the kukan" from the beginning of the encounter (e.g. when the opponent is reaching for the collar). Anyone who has ever trained with Soke knows this. Soke frequently allows the uke to walk through one or two steps of the kata before he "engages the kukan" and send the uke flying or yelping. :D

    For me, "timing" is the choice of when to engage the kukan. It is not "when to strike so as to unbalance the person." That mindset is the vestige of "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu.”

    The other day, for example, we worked on the idea of an aggressor getting angry over a pool shot and waltzing up with his cuestick and deciding to whack your head off! The practice consisted of being able to barely protect one’s head from the attack, AND THEN, how to take control of the kukan and use it to advantage from what would normally be considered a “disadvantaged” or “damaged” position. Surely, your arm was bruised or maybe broken from the cuestick strike, but so long as you have your head about you, you should be able to “engage” the kukan and take out the bad guy.

    We then worked the same principals from the cuestick holder’s perspective to see how the kukan could be engaged to be better at whacking heads! :D

    Everyone came away with some pretty nasty bruises on their arms, but an incredible energy to want to practice these concepts further. After three hours of intense training, many students were raring to keep going! It was exciting for them to discover that “engaging the kukan” could happen at any point, not just during the setup.

    This practice went so well, I am working it into the seminars I am doing later this year. Hopefully, others will enjoy the lessons as well.

    -ben
     
  18. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Agreed. In my classes lately I've been having my own students working on how to "out-kukan" someone who is ALSO working with kukan. Among other things, this involves the ability to recognize when "the space is starting to go bad" for you and adjusting accordingly.

    Right. I'm sure you can recall Soke (and Nagato sensei for that matter) saying, more than once, that you should always be able to kill your opponent at any point in what you're doing if it becomes necessary.
     
  19. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    You know, I was just thinking of the thread topic: "Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective? " and a thought occured to me.

    Unless I am badly mistaken, is it not true that Takamatsu Sensei, in the span of his life, had many challanges by masters and even grandmaster of numerous martial art styles and remained undefeated? And that he even was victorious in over 12 battles to the death in both sword and hand to hand combat against such masters?

    From his bio I found this...
    "In his late 20's, Takamatsu left for China to test his training and work for the various warlords that fought over the provinces. This was a very dangerous time, and traveling on the open road between villages was perilous. He was involved in many fights, and several times he was charged with murder. He was always found not guilty by reason of self defense. His diary stated that he had fought 12 fights to the death as the result of challenges... He returned to Japan, and the name of Moko no Tora became legendary. Near the end of his life, he said that he thought he had killed more than one hundred men."

    Now, is this true?
    Because if it is true, then without all the above debates, does this not answer in a nutshell that Bujinkan training methodology - the methodology Takamatsu sensei taught which is still in practice - really IS effective?
    I mean, we are not talking about school yard rough and tumbles over a sweetheart...we are talking "hey, if I miss a blow...I'm dead."

    Just tossing up ammunition...Fire at will....
     
  20. thomaspaine

    thomaspaine Valued Member

    First off, I think a lot of the Takamatsu stories probably get a little overblown and extra legendary over time, but I won't harp on that. Regardless, I'm willing to bet that his natural abilities and training regimen (which included cross training) was very different from yours. Wasn't he supposed to have developed super thick fingernails by clawing trees? I'm also willing to bet that he sparred since I hear Hatsumi used to have sparring in the early Bujinkan days, and the lack of sparring seems to be the major criticism of Bujinkan training methodology.

    What everyone has said about being able to control the space and your opponent and all that sounds nice, but if you want to convince people that it works(I'm assuming you're trying to convince us that it works since you took the time to respond to tengu666 in the first place) you're going to need some sort of non-anecdotal evidence that it works. People believe that MMA works because it's been well documented via video both on the street and in the ring. I can't say the same about the Bujinkan unless you count Steve Jennum's UFC fights, and if the Bujinkan and MMA community can agree on one thing it's that he was not terrribly impressive. So until someone can get some video up I kind of feel like this debate is just going to go in circles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005

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