Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

I'd say that purpose of Ninjutsu (as taught in the Bujinkan) isn't to produce fighters, but to mold Warriors and Survivors. That's just my take on it though. I haven't run across many Bujinkan practitioners that train to be a fighters. But I know (of) several that use their training in the "real" world all the time. They do not consider themselves to be fighters.

 

Well I would think that it's obvious that the methodologies used now are different to that of feudal Japan!!!! However that doesn't mean that the one used now is less effective...just different and hopefully used so as to meet the requirements of the day

Also I don't agree with the fighting statement, might be my Systema coming through here, but I try to keep away from a fighters mentality. I’m not looking at fighting an aggressor, as I feel this will cause me to focus on just the physical side of a conflict, I’m looking to stop him/her from bringing harm to myself or my loved ones.
Personally I feel that by adopting a fighters mentality you also run the risk of associating a physical response to aggression as the first port of call and on top of that unless you’re balanced in you approach you run the risk of enjoying it!!

I’ve used this quote before. It was said about a month ago by someone by who I hold in very high regard:

“do what ever is necessary to stop the assault…….but you shouldn't enjoy doing it”

 

Kurohana, that's great. In my club we also encourage to eventualy give resistance. I completely agree about the sparring you understand. That kind of sparring is not good for quick finish - but for pointing. I know that even some ring fighters take first round to evaluate the other fighter, second so soften him up, and third to take him out. Sorry, not time for that at the streetfight!

BUT, sparring as I reffer to is a great learning tool - in a way that you experiment while uke is acting like a real person - not a dummy. That means uke is not just throwing randomly punches, but REALLY WANTS to hurt you! As you (might) know, resistance sparring is tabboo in most of the Bujinkan.

I've been to several countries, attended several TaiKais and seen many seminars, but some techniques I've seen just tend not to take into the account attackers resistance, therefore can't be applied.

To be specific (sometimes I exeggerate), how could you possibly apply ichimonji kata described as in scroll. I've given a kata described by one 15.dan Shihan:

"The attacker steps forward with his right foot and executes a right high lunge punch. You fall back and to the right with a left high defensive strike to the inside of his right arm. You then hurl your body forward with a right omoteshuto hand endge strike to the left side of his neck."

 

The aim is to survive (what ninjutsu is all about), that's also my opinion. Any by no means brawl is the last resort of settling down the problem - "Best way to win the fight is to avoid it". But there will be situations when you will not be able to avoid it - for example (from my experience) I was attacked by two guys while I was strolling around with my girlfriend. What could I do - run away and leave her? I f*** them up!

So why would methodology change if one of the purposes is to learn to fight? It this is not the purpose, then why we have physical training? I don't think so.

OK, I know that physical training produces some more profound results, like developing your character qualities.

I must disagree. Fighter is not somebody who likes to brawl - he is the person who faces him problems, not run away. So, it's very important to develop that kind of mentality. Apparently we are using the same term for different things.

 

Training methodology would change due to the culture and time that it is being practiced! I think there’s a lot more to this discussion than just the old resisting opponents and sparring debate. Again I ask is the purpose of what we study today in the Bujinkan, and I don’t mean Ninjutsu I mean Bujinkan Taijutsu, to fight?

Yes you are right when it comes down to it we are all going to need physical skill to keep ourselves safe but IMHO you shouldn’t see it as a fight!

I’ve been in situations in clubs, pubs and such where it’s kicked off or someone’s tried to start with me and I’ve walked out without a scratch and without needing raise a hand . (Jedi mind tricks are a wonderful thing if you can do em )

Yeah that’s a frequent problem on Forums on the net!!
How would you say a fighter faces their problems then?

See folks this is what MAPs about different opinions and exchange of ideas without the name calling or flaming.......

 

We human beings have been the same even 2000 ago. In that time they also had 2 arms, 2 legs, etc. which is what counts. Gladiators, Roman Legions and Samuari all had more or less the same aim - how to defeat the oponent, and should have the same training methods. So, bare hand fight - everywhere in the world is very similar. But, when we are talking about the weapons (which were used since the prehistoric man got the club into his hands) - there are cultural differences - you are right. Swinging a katana is not same like a broadsword. But two principles remained the same - then - and even now in modern special forces training:
- training which looks as much similar as the real confrontation (realistic attack, realistic battlefield)
- mental endurance (developing the will to survive, cope with stress, etc.)

Going against these principles will not prepare you for the confrontation.

One of the aims MUST be ability to fight, or else we could train a football or religion.

You are absolutely right, but I already told you the same thing:
"Best way to win the fight is to avoid it". That's the same thing when they ask you how to defend against the attacker with the gun 3 meters away from you. - Answer: Fact that you got into this situation tells that you already didn't do a proper defense. You show avoid the situation to be in possibility to get into the fight! OK, isn't not 100% achievable, but other things like awareness or manupulating the opponent before he physically attacks must be developed.

 

Don't know if you are getting me, but resistance is not how strong or fast uke attacks, but resisting your technique.

Look at the following scenario (segment from the resistance sparring):
In the middle of the technique, you got his hand into omote gyaku and uke throws a hook into you head. You blocked, but he grabbed your blocking hand with his attacking hand, preventing you driving left koppoken into his temple. You quickly adapt and try to do musodori on his right elbow. While pulling him down, you want to deliver a right knee to his chest, but he blocks with his left elbow,..... and so on

Did that, great exercise.

 

*sigh*

That's exactly what I was afraid you meant, and it's typical of people who haven't trained long enough or properly. You just don't get it. What you're saying is -- in terms of Hatsumi sensei's art at least -- so fundamentally flawed (in the literal sense of a "foundation" of principles) that there's probably no way I can effectively put this across in written form.

One of the major problems with your description above is that you're trying to do techniques instead of using the space in such a way that techniques "happen". A technique is as much (and often more) the creation of the opponent as it is of the budoka, so how can there be resistance to it when he's thinking & feeling that everything that's happening is his own idea until it's too late?

To borrow an excellent phrase from Russian Systema, Bujinkan budo is based on "a different operating system" from the "fight the opponent and do techniques" mindset.

 

Having your uke resist your technique is one thing, having your uke resist by clocking you in the face is another. All sparring means is training without a predetermined tori and uke, and I think that's an important facet of training because someone attacking you is looking to counter your attacks with his own attacks. Without sparring how do you know that what you're doing works, or that you can pull it off at speed against a fully resisting (read: actually trying to hurt you) opponent? It's like having a theory without empirically testing it.

As far as Bujinkan training fighters goes, I think people get a little too bent out of shape about semantics and conotations. If someone attacks you and you knee him in the balls and run away, to me that's fighting. I consider any self defense which requires you to use physical force to be fighting. 99% of martial artists would rather go the non-violent route in a confrontation, the Bujinkan isn't unique in that respect, but sometimes you don't have a choice and that's when it's time to fight. If you're not learning how to fight, then what are you learning?

 

How to survive.

A "fight" is essentially a contest, one person trying to dominate another. (This may or may not include serious injury or death.) There is a huge qualitative difference between fighting and survival, even though the latter may also leave your opponent seriously injured or dead: If that does happen, you haven't done it to "dominate" him, "teach him a lesson", punish him, or prove a point of some kind -- you did it to stop or escape the danger.

 

Thank you Dale,

That’s what I was trying to get across. To me if you look at is as a fight then that leads to contest which in turn leads to the win lose mentality!

 

Great post Thomaspaine!

Dale, it seems that you constantly don't get what I said, or misinterpret it. And there is no need for underestimating somebody you haven't seen nor understood what he asked.

First of all, I was not describing what I was trying to do, but what my (someone's) body was doing spontaneously. You do not have time to consciously think what you will do. You know that. I used words like "adapt" which means you could only feel something, not to be conscious that his fist is coming at you. God, is my english so bad so it can't be understood!?

Using the space is OK concept, but you will eventually have to hit, lock or throw him, right? What then?

You are talking too theoretically about the fight, so please be more specific. I would really like to understand what are you talking, maybe it will shift my paradigms about BBT. But explain it on an example, let's say, how would you resove a fight with a K1 fighter on the street (not in a ring). And please, don't mention me hidden weapons or bar chairs. Let's say environment is completely unuseful.


Also, I previously asked you couple of questions in this thread, so I'll be grateful if you find time to answer them.

 

Well, fight is esentially win-lose action. It certanly can't we win-win!! :-D


Dale, I agree about survival - that's the main purpose. Ninjutsu is not about who is the strongest, I mean everybody can grab a gun and kill you! But you'll eventually be forced to fight (see previous post about my situation). When it comes to that, IMO, you should use environment as much as you can (throw him into the wall, smack him head with the glass, etc.), not to act boldly and overconfident. That's one of the differences between ninjutsu and other MAs.

Altrough, I was in a situation where my firend was so drunk that he couldn't recognize his brother! He started beating him and his girl, so I had to hold him and apply locks constantly since I didn't want to hit him! He raged for 2 hours! So, what good could I have if I smacked his head and showed him that I'm stronger than him?

 

Hmm....

This point seems to highlight the difference between "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu" and "Kukan-based Taijutsu." In "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu," the uke *MAY* actually be able to "fight back" against you if you do the technique imperfectly. In "Kukan-based Taijutsu," honestly, there is no way for the uke to resist!!! There is nothing to resist!

Stop right there. If you are doing what Soke is doing, the uke can only throw the hook if *YOU* want him to. Your "getting" an omote gyaku is only possible if you are controlling the kukan. If you try to "get" an omote gyaku without controlling the kukan, it's WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much work, and what you describe COULD actually unfold.

But why would ANYONE want to do that?!?

I agree with Dale here. The only advice one can give you is to work to get the eyes to see what Sveneric and Arnaud are doing when they come to visit. Clearly, you are not seeing what you need to be seeing. I'm sure this will offend you, but it is not meant to do so. It is meant to help you find something that you are clearly missing.

The things you describe are not limited to only you. These are probably the most widely misunderstood aspects of our art, both inside and outside the organization. It is usually caused by people seeing something, convincing themselves that they know what just happened, and then going out and practicing it as if it were correct. Those people teach others what they were convinced was correct, and on and on it goes.

When I asked you how many Bujinkan Shidoshi were in Serbia, you answered "several." Does "several" mean 5 or does it mean 80? This question is extremely relevant because of the way the teachings are passed down and CORRECTED across Shidoshi. See my relevant comments here about how information sharing across a large pool of people keeps people from going too off track.

It sounds to me that either (1) you are not understanding what the teachers are saying, or (2) the teachers are off track. Clearly, Sveneric and the others that you mentioned are not off track, but that certainly doesn't guarantee that those who train with them are not getting off track when processing the lessons from the Shihan....

All the best!

-ben

 

Thanks, bencole, no offense. I'm on this forum to gain new insights, not to chit-chat.

Could you explaing me the difference between these two, and how they acutally apply in a real fight? How's that uke will not be able to give resistance? Give example.

Correct, I just put omote-gyaku as an (inappropriate) example. Look at the essence what I've tried to say.

Maybe I'm not getting something, but as I've seen many Shihans and shidoshis, I couldn't get that impression they are invincible. Espressially because some Shidoshis who I attacked WITH resisance, - so no helping in demonstarting the technique - failed to defend. They are direct students of some of the main Shinans, as well as I am.

And, let me not forget one funny story I've experienced - we were on a seminar held by a Shihan. Attending the seminar was one gyu (then 10.dan, now 12-13.dan) who was talking his theories about fighting. There were also 2 guys with 2months training in Bujinkan, and they went into shopping in that country, and stopped by to attend the seminar. At one point, we were were scattered besides the road when tori should pass by. Idea is to hop from the concealment and attack him (grab at the back of the collar), so tori can execute a freestyle technique. Problem is that these two guys didn't hear well, and they thought they should attack tori more than once. And when this 10.dan guy was passing by, two newbies jumped on the road and beat him up! He fell down, and couldn't give any defense. They grabbed him, so he couldn't move. These 2 guys later said: "Oh, but we didn't know he is 10.dan" !!!
:-D

I've seen many crap, but I'm sure there are right people, that's why I'm here.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Zanflad

To be fair m8, and i can only speak for my lessons, of which you've had maybe 10 or so. If you want to train at full speed, with intention thats fine but i offer no apologies for injuries recieved. I mean that in the nicest way, no ego. Whilst learning its a slow process, i know that you have some negative opinions of some local instructors but please do not drag me into it. Maybe MMA would be better for 'dealing with fear, mental aspect etc' It takes along time to learn and there is no quick and easy route in the bujinkan.

I have been unlucky enough to set upon several times and despite the amount of alcohol involved i walked away..er..staggered unscathed.
So IMHO something worked. My students come to learn, have fun and i'm happy for that. Maybe what your looking for is MMA, go along train, don't talk or make friends, just fight, probably about as close to 'real' fighting but you still wil have rules, someone to step in etc but in a real fight the panic is yours alone.

Gary

 

Hmm Right the way I’m interpreting what Ben and Dale are explaining, please keep in mind I’ve no where near the experience of half the people in this forum, is that it doesn’t matter if it’s omote-gyaku or any other technique if you are controlling the space correctly then Uke wont be in the position to counter or resist. If you dictate what space uke can use then Uke will only be able to do what you want regardless of if the are UFC, K1, TKD or street thug.

Hope I’m on the ball there???…..dam good thread this has turned out to be anyway!