Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

hmm then maybe you shouldn't of at all.........

 

Well for one it serves no purpose in furthering what is turning out to be a good discussion and I can see this going the same way as the "High Ranking Women" Thread!!!!

Like I said issues!!

Why not take them up via PM!


Right back on topic

 

People, I started this thread to see other people's opinions and maybe gain some new insights. Please don't let this discussion go into the wrong direction.

Another thing - which I already DID mention, but here it again: All I write is based on what I saw in Bujinkan. In light of that NZ Ninja:

I'm not talking what I can't do it, but what I saw MANY OTHER Bujinkan people couldn't do. I'm happy that you are not one of them, but again this is not the theme of this disussion.

In my opinion, Bujinkan methodology has some serious flaws, and the unbeatable fact is the very thing it produces - its practiotioners. Many (not ALL) are just incapable to fight, and Bujinkan teachings will not help them save thier heads. But again, there are people who overcomed this flaws. I'm seeking them, and therefore started this thread to hear thier experiences!

 

I think the Bujinkan works in many ways for some it will work, for others it won't some can work on the ground some cannot, it all depends on the person and the teacher etc. Some teachers can help you to make it work, others cannot, i know my teacher makes it work and more realistic but i have seen some others who cannot. It depends on the student ultimately and if it does not work for you then find another art.

 

This might sound a little abstract but I am of the school of thought that you need to initially learn technique and learn how to fight so that you can unlearn it later on.

If some are incapable of fighting then they need to practise more, ie. sparring.

 

Well said.

 

I feel this way also, when one starts out they do it slow, this could go on for as long as they need it to, speeding up is a confidence factor that some get quicker than others, our club is young, less than 2 years old, our highest grade is 4th kyu and out of about 20 only a few will speed things up as they are more confident. They are also starting to find their feet and look at the space they are using and moving around with it, experimenting i think you would call it, sometimes its wrong sometimes they get it, so as Frod says its an experience thing.

 

I don't think it's so much the Bujinkan training methodology that is flawed, but the inability of some practitioners and some teachers to see past certain aspects of the training and they then convey their flawed interpretation of it.

Point: You mentioned, and I quote "I know there are other movement directions (actually overal 10), and not only diagonally backwards". That is a flawed statement. There are many more than 10 directions to move in. Once you have set a number of directions (or a set of specific henka) yuou have limited yourself. Not only in what you can do, but in what you can see others doing or teaching. There are unlimited directions to move in. Some dictated by your actions, some by your opponents actions, the enviroment, that little kid wandering into the middle of the fight, that pile of dog doo... etc.

 

so what training within the Bujinkan prepares you to deal with fear and the psychological factors of dealing with real violence ?

not your mate attacking you with a rubber knife in the dojo, but some rabid cracked up psycho trying to hack you to bits.

 

Why would you think it doesn't?

How much Bujinkan experience do you have? or is it just BJJ?

Also what makes you think rubber knives are used???

 

You've partially answered your own question. You can have your uke attack you like some cracked up psycho trying to hack you to bits, with a rubber knife of course. Have them keep coming and coming, and see how well you do.

It's like any martial art; how and what you train depends on the school. Good MA schools will explain and explore the psychological aspects of a confrontation, both in theory and in practise, so they can be better understood, and in turn, make you even a little better prepared for that moment when the <oops> hits the fan.

 

i have trained on and off within the bujinkan for a couple of years, will continue to do so, although it is not my main art.

i have never recieved training on dealing with fear or the mental aspect of a real confrontation.

so if you have or think the Bujinkan does cover these aspects, then let me know, which after all is why i asked the question.

 

Cheers for the reply Zanflad!

 

I tried to be specific and technical. So moving can be classified into 8 directions + ten + chi = 10 . 45 or 47,436534 degrees are considered the same direction. I know that you'll always make a little different angle when you evade, but you know what I mean. I'm speaking only about direction (physical aspect), not strategy or something else. I know that this is basic, and later you can move wherever you want in space. So, be precise.

 

Personaly i am beggining to realise that the psycholigical side of training is the most important, its probably also the hardest aspect and also the aspect that is most neglected.

not just within the Bujinkan but most martial arts.

 

Absolutely agree with you. I have same training regiment. Build a form, pick up principles behind the form, and then throw it away. It's what I call spiral development - you are at the beggining when you didn't know the form, but now you have more profound knowlegde.

Greg, but that means there isn't a good methodology for learning process. Good methodology would more likely produce good fighters. Right?

I agree that you must start slow and then build up the speed. But that's, what Dale would said, when you are a baby. My impression on Bujinkan methodology is this (many people got me wrong - it's not MINE methodology):
- start training kata slowly - build up motoric skills and movement necessary for kata execution
- build up the speed up to full speed execution
- start experimenting with your spontanety - slow attacks, spontaneous defense - you make a lot of henkas
- build up the speed for spontaneous defense


So many people will say - ok, what you want more from that?

R E S I S T A N C E !

Attacker must put full resistance into his attacks, not to comply with the technique. It's like he must stop tori from doing a defense, not help him. It's him or tori! That's a real fight! I also agree that level of resistance must be trained from none up to full!

I feel that majority is not working the way I described (with resistance). And that's what classifies a techique to be "street-appliable" - if you manage to do it even when attacker is giving a full resistance.

How many of you are doing that way? I know there are Bujinkan people who work that way, and I would like to hear their experiences. Oh, yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong about the methodology.

 

But is the aim of the Bujinkan to produce fighters???

 

Sure ninjutsu has been used for fighting. But since we don't have wars in our neighbourhood any more (ok, I in Serbia had 3 in last 15 years ;-) ), Bujinkan teaches people to be become a better human beings. But it should also teach you how to fight - otherwise we show all go into church to acheive the same aim. Also, then it would mean ninjutsu was practiced differently in feudal Japan and now. And that would lead us to conclusion that methodologies are different. Am I correct?

 

Sorry, precision isn't my forte.

As for the resistance training you described, that's how I've always done it. Build it up from compliant to resistive. Not sparring, to be honest I have no intention of dragging out a fight. So the randori I do and the resistance training I do fits me perfectly. To me, sparring brings to mind images of 2 guys going at it for X number of rounds for X number of minutes. A real fight isn't going to be that way. It's a great way to train if you want to be a ring fighter, but it's not why I train or how I train.

I take the level of resistance up to my uke's level of training. If, it's a student and they're ready, I'll step it up. It pushes them and when it works, shows them what they are capable of. If it doesn't work, it shows both of us the areas they need to work on. Whether it's the mental/emotional aspect or the physical technique. I hope that when I'm uke, that my tori takes the intent up to my level and allows me to step up the resistance I give. My current training partners do that. So far I've been fortunate enough to train with folks that haven't fit the mold you describe.