Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

A kata, as we practice it, is only a specific techinique that may occur. The important thing to learn is the principle behind it as Kurohanna said. Most BBT dojo dont teach that you have to move this foot here then do this in an exact manner, we try to get away from that as much as possible. And it is effective on the street, since i just used it yesterday, read more in my other thread.

 

Kata is principle which you must understand, so your body will adapt it instantly, creating a technique (henka) - so henka is embodyment of the kata, or manifestation of the kata to the corresponding attack.

If you did something in the fight doesn't merely mean your style is good - because what you did can also be considered as ThaiBoxing or some other art. Fight is very personal, it's not which martial arts are confronted, but WHO is fighting. Martial arts is only a tool which will eventually shape you into the fighter. Training is not transitional, but transformational process.

Also, I'm glad you <oops> that idiot.

 

As long as one of you is still able to breathe -- and by the way, that one does not have to be you -- there is enough space to work with.

Pretty much the same thing that happens to anyone else when the first few puts them on their ass: Said ass gets whupped; the whuppee gets unconscious, injured, killed, or all three; and the whupper gets to go to court if he can be caught following the incident.

 

I remember when I started my Bujinkan training one of the things that appealed to me was the supposed deemphasis of kata. "We don't do 20 step kata here". No, but they do a bunch of 3 step kata, and kata is kata. Even the henka seemed like kata. When I started bjj I found that I was pretty much starting from scratch because I couldn't really apply much of what I'd learned in the Bujinkan, even though many of the techniques are the same.

IMO the thing about avoiding the space translated to mma is you're staying out of the striker's range. You're either too far away to be hit, at an angle where you can't be effectively hit, or you're in the clinch. This is a lot easier said than done though, and very similar to the grappler's mindset of closing the distance to apply a lock or take the fight to the ground. But if mma has taught us anything it's that you have to be comfortable at all ranges of fighting, not just grappling. At least that's my take on things.

 

Yeah, I saw far too many bujinkan practicioners got their ass whupped while trying to defend from combination of more than two non-agreed hits. What they usually do is to try to stay out of the range by using a zig-zag movement (45 degrees diagonally backwards), which causes them backpeddaling, eliminating any chances to make an counter towards the opponent. Only few of them did it properly by using a circular movement. Rest of them either: fell down because they couldn't run faster; hit the obstracle (wall); eventually got the hit. I must remind that this zig-zag movement is pretty common in scrolls.

Dale, could you tell me your viewpoint regading the zig-zag movement using the ichimonjis against the combination of hits?

 

"You fight the way you train."

I train in a relaxed and playful manner, so I fight in a relaxed and playful manner. Adrenaline dumps don't affect me as much when I'm not in a fighting mode. Instead, I treat the encounter like any other normal thing in my life.

I have been successful in a few real serious fights after only a couple years' training, so for me, the Bujinkan method is effective enough.

Maybe I was just lucky to get good instructors.

 

"The way you train is the way you react" - Benny Urquidez ;-)

You trained in a playful manner??? You should be relaxed, ok, but when somebody pulls a knife on you, you won't be so playfull. And if you then don't experience adrenaline stress, then you have a god's gift!

The key is to stay cool during the fight, but you must have either: accumulated positive experience in fights, or training which encompassed emotional aspect of a fight.

For the sake of this thread, could you describe me the way you train (no/semi/full contact with/without sparring, uke is/isn't giving resistance), and what things did you use which exclusively belong to ninjutsu?

 

Just curious, how many Bujinkan Shidoshi are there actually in the entire country of Serbia?

-ben

 

Several. Generally, schools are associeted either with Shadow Warriors (Brin Morgan) or Arnauld C., Peter King and Sveneric. These Shihans were in Serbia.

 

Well all I can say is Im real glad I learnt Bujinkan in NZ. Zig-Zag???,cant attack cos your going back???cant defend against a barrage of kicks and punches???No good in the StReEt???Cant fight on the ground??? Speak for yourself only.

 

What you're describing -- 45-degree zigzag stuff in response to multiple attacking movements -- sounds like what Brin Morgan & I refer to as "baby step" stuff. That should have been outgrown in my opinion by. . .oh, say 8th kyu.

For one thing, it ain't always 45 degrees; for another, stepping IN past an attack is perfectly valid as well (think of a lot of the muto-dori kata of various ryuha, for example).

Or think of adjusting the distance by angling just slightly "inside" the attack in response to a punch and without stepping back much at all, and instead of doing a ukenagashi to the arm, using the same movement dynamics to deliver an ura shuto to the carotid artery or the temple. Fight's pretty much over right there.

Actually, now that you've got me thinking about it. . .Let's take the classic ichimonji no kamae sequence from the kihon happo. Most people take a deep 45-degree step back and wallop the punching arm or wrist, etc., etc.

Guess what, though -- that's not the "original recipe" in the densho. It actually says that you're not supposed to step back.

You receive the attack with your knees and a change of planes, redirect his movement with either kuzushi or kukan, already controllng the "good space" and unbalancing and opening him up; then you wallop the hell out of him.

It's all very, very fast, because it's done in a much "closer" space than many people seem to realize.

 

Good info for a noob like me.

 

I am no longer associated with the Bujinkan. I left the organization due to the abusive and narcissistic attitudes of the teachers I had the misfortune to train under. During my time of association with and even more so since my departure from the Bujinkan I have noticed extreme differences in the way BBT is taught depending on geographic region and instructoral lineage. also some instructors who market under the bujinkan name teach dated material or recieved their rank due to the good ole boy ranking system common to some instructoral lineages. In short some Bujinkan instructors suck no matter what rank they hold. Therefore I think it is difficult to define what exactly Budo Taijutsu and its training method are. Thus the question of effectiveness of training method is far to subjective to be answered adequately.

For me the positives I got from BBT training included a deep conceptual understanding of angle and the use of the skeleton to restrict the opponents ability to move. Both of which have proven effective for me.

take care, steve

 

Thanks Dale.

I know there are other movement directions (actually overal 10), and not only diagonally backwards, but I must say that many katas (let's say Koto ryu Shoden no kata) ARE written down with this movement. I know that if you know the essence of the kata, you can use other movement as well. But that's what I've been trying to say on this forum - why don't you learn effective techniques from the beggining? I'm trying to be constructive here. ;-) As I've said, seen many BBT people who only backwards when it comes to real attacking.

As I know, in Gyokko Ryu, there are 6 basic kamaes, and some of them has tactically different purpose (e.g. jumonji is defensive, not agressive posture). Ichimonji is here for "changing the form of the attack", which is just what you told about controlling his space. As I'm thought, you also heavily use te-sabaki kata (which is originally from Kukishinden Ryu) to unbalance the attacker.

Oh, and here is the Ichimonji kata as I have it (actually, from one of the versions I have):

"The attacker steps forward with his right foot and executes a right high lunge punch. You fall back and to the right with a left high defensive strike to the inside of his right arm. You then hurl your body forward with a right omoteshuto hand endge strike to the left side of his neck."

 

I think it was a good question really, it shows what level of training is coming out of that country, if they only get visiting shidoshi every now and then its not as good as having a good one week in week out.

 

Well, if these Shihans were honest with their opinions, then Bujinkan is Serbia is very good. Or maybe they didn't have heart to say?... :-( Ok, being a little comparative and looking how other people train in other countries, Bujinkan Serbia is prettly much the same as elsewhere.

 

You seem to have a few issues of late Peaceful???? Was there really any need to phrase the above in the way you did!!


Is it me guys or has there been an atmosphere round here lately…..well as much as there can be on a net forum!!