Is Bujinkan training methodology really effective?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by tengu666, Jul 25, 2005.


What training methods & drills you use on your training?

  1. bag work

    12 vote(s)
  2. focus mits

    14 vote(s)
  3. kata - drill (with/without weapons)

    23 vote(s)
  4. kata - exploration (creativity, henkas, with/without weapons)

    25 vote(s)
  5. randori (sparring, opponent with MEDIUM, FULL resistance, with/without weapons)

    22 vote(s)
  6. sparring - FULL contact, FULL resistance, opponent use tactics while attacks

    11 vote(s)
  7. emotional aspect (scenario-based training)

    23 vote(s)
  8. ground fighting

    20 vote(s)
  9. other

    16 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    What are your opinions on Bujinkan training methodology? Do you think it can really prepare you for the real confrontation?
  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Well I often wonder this not only about Bujinkan but the other training I do, I have a tendency to question :D, but then I think well if people like Dale and Norman are doing it then there has to be something to it.

    Also I will say that I've found my Bujinkan "appear" during my Systema training, usually when I'm seeing how long it takes me before me instructor puts me on my backside :D when we are...I wont say sparring as it's not it's sort half way between sparring and all out depending on how confident I'm feeling :D

    Put him on the floor once with a Ganseki nage which came out of no where, the thing is I'm bloody useless at it in class!!!

    So with it spontaneously appearing for me when needed and with the back ground of some of the senior exponents of the art then yes I do feel it can help stack the odds in your favour with regards to a confrontation.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2005
  3. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I see it more as traditional rather than realistic.
  4. llong

    llong Valued Member

    What do you mean by methodology? Technique, philosophy of teaching, etc.?
  5. zanflad

    zanflad Banned Banned

    training within the Bujinkan like most martial arts in no way prepares you for a real violent confrontation. thats my opinion anyway.
  6. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    "Way you train is the way you react (fight)" - Benny Urquirez said. For people who don't know who is Benny, he is the guy who introduced full-contact karate (now kickboxing). He didn't lose ANY fight in his professional carrer.

    Also, consider this: "Training show be like a bloodless battle, so the battle show be like a bloody training" - Roman Legions maxim.

    Training against these principles will get you nowhere, no matter how hard you train. The way you train is also crucial.

    In last 15 years, I trained with a high-ranking Bujinkan instructors (even top Shihans), sparred with other MAs (kickboxers, jiu jitsu, karate, boxers), and I can say that I have significant street experience, but at the end I realized many techniques can't be applied as taught. What you saw on the Dale's video clip is that Juan doesn't have a clue how the real attacker would act and react. I'm not saying anyting about Dale's skills, but real fight is very, very different that on this clip.
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    You aint trained with Norman ;-)
  8. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Hmm I don't think the idea of that clip was to replicate a real fight anyway so you can't use that as justification.

    ps oh by the way just out of interest who you trained with?

  9. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    Maybe it's not appropriate to list their names, but the situation is the same - just look at the TaiKai, and you'll what I'm talking.

    Movement traditionally shown in many katas is unrealistic and almost impossible to apply. It can only work if uke is not giving any resistance, and acts like a superman (freeze his punching arm and observers while you pound him) :). I know that Hatsumi told to forget the forms, which is, I think, just the right thing to do. But I advocate to learn realistic henkas of the kata.

    For example, Tenchi kata from Koto Ryu Shodan no Kata in essence says to hit high (ten) and then low (chi). You don't have to fix on the form shown in kata. You can even apply kata as an offensive movements - which I did to one guy as an premptive strike - as he run at me and entered my range, he got kick in the balls and right after punch to the teeth. ;-). That's the way I see katas.
  10. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Why not PM me then instead if you don't wish to put them on an open forum?

    *edit Cheers for the PM Tengu666
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  11. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    Meaning the way you train. For example, aikido and some Bujinkan schools use choreographic excercises (predefines set of attacks, and the predefined defence). On the other hand, kickboxing uses sparring-based excercises.
  12. KSprenk

    KSprenk be

  13. zanflad

    zanflad Banned Banned

    what about the psycholigical aspects of a real confrontation, if you are not prepared mentally no amount of kata or training drills are going to help you ?
  14. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Works for me. Always has. If your "kata" and henka in class seem too robotic, too rigid, then part of the problem may lie in how your uke commits to their attack. When you first learn a technique, your uke is expected to let you do the technique qhile giving minimal resistance. However, the more you practice, the more your uke should resist. Also, the more you practice the more your uke should attack. If uke doesn't give 110% how can you learn?
    I've been involved in the Bujinkan for over 20 years, I've worked as a bouncer, concert security, intervened in altercations that were none of my business and have never lost. Either because I was able to diffuse the situation (part of my Bujinkan training) or if it did turn violent, end quickly and with minimum damage to my person.
    Bujinkan training isn't for everyone. People might want to think it is, but it isn't. Bujinkan training isn't for the guy who wants to learn how to kick butt overnight but for the guy (or gal) that doesn't mind spending a few years to understand the art.
    It works for me. It works for the (few) people I've taught and have needed to use it.
  15. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    Emotional conditioning is essential. If you don't do that, you will just freeze and your mind will not access all the techniques you've learned. That's the situation we all head about. Adrenaline stress conditioning is the way to fix it. Look at the In other words, only actual or near actual experience of the real fight can prepare you for the combat. Under the adrenal stress, you experience following effects:
    - lose fine motoric skills (forget about the kata's finesses)
    - tunnel effect (your vision is narrowed, and is focused, which is dangerous since his buddy can slam you from behind)
    - limbs trembling
    - dizziness (blood pressure drops because blood is going to the limbs - natural mechanism preparing you to fight or flight)
    - mind tends to "lock up" on a target

    You also must develop basic principles and skills like sensitivity and looseness, so you can act according to the attacks. Technique is at the third place. If you don't have previous two, forget about your technique!

    You must be aware of this if you want to be successful in a fight. Only training method which encompasses physical, metal and emotinal aspects of fight (sanshin) can prepare you for the real thing. Unfortunately, 90% of Bujinkan schoools do only a technique. :-(
  16. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member


    great it helps you. I'm looking for people who actualy applied ninjutsu, and how they did it. I know that kata is principle, and that you don't have to look at the form. Having said that, I'm pretty sure that you can't really step back with your right into seigai while a kickboxer attacks you, and they step forward with the same leg in order to hit him with shuto. Kickboxer would throw 4-5 punches meanwhile. That's traditional form, and can't be applied in a real fight. Correct me if I'm wrong. I assume that you picked up the principles which helped you instantly create a henka in a real confrontation. But that's what I'm talking about - why don't you train in exact way as you would fight on the street.
  17. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I will go so far as to say I have applied it it submission grappling comps and streetfights in as much trying to keep my wits about me and its throws are very good as there taken from jujitsu and there is judo (some of the best throwers about) also draw from the jujitsu line so this is good hence results in comp were good.

    I did find when most other people who did ninjitsu were attacked in a real life situation they often froze or had one step sparring ability rather than the insight and confidence to take charge of the situation.

    A friend was pinned on the ground and pounded senseless until another person dragged the other guy off him. For me it was one of the things I noticed about "most taijitsu schools" he could not fight when he started and could not fight using taijitsu 8 years later.

    Now he has taken the good parts of taijitsu and added them to some stock mma and more modern self defence arts and as a result can mount an offence now and is improving.

    I have been in a few nasty streetfights and it was ok for me but I feel my kickboxing served me better.
  18. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Thing is, without training in ichimonji, hicho or seigan no kamae, I wouldn't have moved into the right space.
    Since a fight can not be duplicated (ie, every fight is different, every opponent is different, enviroment is different, etc) the idea is to learn the kata/technique PRINCIPLES and throw away the actually kata. Learn how to move into a safe space and to control your opponents space.
    You say a kickboxer would have thrown 4-5 punches in the time... okay, cool, good for them. However, in that time, I would not be in that space. He'd be throwing punches at the air. I'd be someplace else, maybe breaking his knee or grabbing his hair or choking him out. (Just examples) Also, the odds of me ever fighting a skilled kickboxer are slim to none.

    I gotta go and fix breakfast now, wife is nagging, I'll comeback to this later. (After my coffee. Maybe then I can be a bit more articulate in what I'm trying to say)
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Without harping on about things too much the stock answer from Taijitsu is the above, things about not being in his space.

    What happens if you dont get out of the way and the first few put you on your ass? I agree its all somantics but often the cryptic answers of Taijitsu cant 100% cut it when your on the street.
  20. tengu666

    tengu666 Valued Member

    Yeah, agree with you (said the same thing in previous post). But, isn't kata a principle in some level of abstraction (I'm little confisuing here ;-) )?

    Yeah, but that's what I was talking about - if you can't do it the way it is written down, why train in that way? Why it was written that way in the first place? (I know Japanese are formalists and like to encrypt things).

    I agree with your strategy, BUT I noticed that far too many BBT people can't take initiative and step into the attacker's space after the attack, hence make an counterattack - their movement is slow, and they are too defensive. Ok, things like sabaki (like throwing a uke off the balance), especialy te-sabaki helps here.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2005

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