IRA (Split from 900 Dead in Gaza thread)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by CKava, Jan 12, 2009.

  1. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    This is just flat out wrong. Negotiating with the IRA was essential for the peace process in Northern Ireland to have any chance of succeeding. Also, how many years has it been since the IRA last attacked Britain? If you think the IRA is as influential and powerful as it was in the past say in the 80's and 90's you really need to get some better sources or spend some time in Northern Ireland.

    Far from being "just as powerful as ever" independent commissions set up by the British & Irish governments and criticised by some Republicans for being anti-Sinn Fein have consistently reported that the IRA has shown it is now committed to a political path, that it's activities have ceased and that its ruling council was no longer in operation. Here is their 2008 report...

    Oh and in regards disarming once again the independent commission's have repeatedly verified this to be the case. Whether you believe it or not is your business but it's not a case of being gullible since the British & Irish governments and independent commissions all recognise this to be the case.

    Ex-members of the IRA may have gone on to become involved in drugs but the IRA certainly hasn't since firstly by all accounts it is not active anymore and secondly the IRA was (in)famous for it's intolerance of drug dealing. Drug dealers and the like were frequently targeted by the IRA for 'punishment beatings'. The Unionist militant organisations were/are the ones most heavily involved in the drug trade.

    Which statistics are these? I'd be interested in seeing them since they not only directly contradict my own experience but also contradict all the independent reports I'm aware of. Also, punishment beatings and criminal activity occurring does not necessarily mean the IRA is involved.

    Overall Fire-quan I get the distinct impression you know a lot less than you think you do about the situation in Northern Ireland and how important negotiating with the IRA was to the peace process.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  2. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    You know what, I live in this country too, and I actually do have a valid say in whether letting out teams of murderers who, should they go active again - which they could any point - would target me, my home, my family, my friends. And that really is almost the minor point - letting them out of jail in the first place was an outrageous affront to the decent, law abiding people of this country.

    I get the impression you understand a lot less about right and wrong than you think you do. And thanks for carrying the message that terrorism works - which it clearly has.

    And as for the Labour and Irish Governments claiming that the peace process is a huge success, well, they would, wouldn't they? And as for IRA arms, unless you're a member of the ruling council, I doubt you, or anyone, has the slightest idea ont he real numbers of arms in Ireland - tell me, with you awfully patronising, glib certainty, did the IRA and Loyalist terrorists run very efficient receipt schemes and arms-monitoring of its ordinance? Did every rifle and rocket launcher supplied to every man and woman get noted down?

    You're tripping - there must be thousands of guns in private hands. There's absoloutely no way to even know how many gund there are in Ireland - no way on Earth, so that's your theory right out of the window.

    MI5 announced recently that dissident IRA activity is more of a threat than ever - and if you think it's measured by whether they've had an attack recently, you're tripping again - the attacks on the Mainland were always sporadic - and the fact is, whatever you may think, teams of the most ruthless, violent, serious, committed members of the IRA were released from prison - and now we sit in hostage to them, hoping that they won't start again, or join dissident Republican groups... Man, you have a skewed idea of 'peace' - what, you seriously think it means that no bombs are planted for a while? We're hostages to these people - that's not peace, not even close. Meanwhile, MI5 tells us that dissident IRA groups are more of a threat than ever.

    Even if they weren't, justice would still have been screwed over. Pretty poor stuff, if you ask me - peace process? You're tripping.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Yeah? Why don't you ask the McCartney sisters about THEIR direct personal experience, and see how that works out for you.
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    You didn't answer his question there.

    No-one's saying that ex-IRA men haven't turned into an Irish Mafia in some regions, but the fact is that they're not a terrorist group declaring war on their neighbouring country any more. They're a criminal gang that can (and should) be dealt with by the police force.
  5. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    After the establishemtn of the Irish state, they always were.

    And here's another thing - really, it's all just like an illusion - the peace process didn't stop the IRA - they were STOPPED - they IRA were forced to stop being so active by the cutting of funding from America after 911, but we're al supposed to buy this glorious story of people coming to the negotiating table and building peace. Nonsense.
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    lol at the IRA being more powerful than ever. How utterly paranoid. Did you see the amount of weapons that the IRA handed over? It matched the estimates of the police, the military and MI5. The IRA disarmed. End of story. The danger now comes from the small hardcore splinter groups who haven't even a fraction of the funding or the infrastructure needed to carry out a major campaign of violence. To the best of my knowledge Jonathan Evans didn't even mention the IRA and he said there had been a rise in dissident republican activity, not that it was worse that ever. There comes a point at which spin becomes outright falsehood.

    Negotiating with the IRA didn't show anyone that terrorism works, but it did show the IRA that dialogue works. They achieved more of their objectives in a few years at the negotiating table than they did in a few decaded in the trenches.

    Yes, some members of the IRA will have kept hold of their weapons, but dont kid yourself, the Loyalist group members did too.
  8. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I dont enjoy arguing against people like you, you make it too easy, although providing a source that says you are wrong was a very nice gesture.


    Yes, but from re-reading your posts I have to you actually know what dissident means and what a dissident republican is? Your arguments so far suggest that you haven't a clue.

    oops again.

    Yeah, negotiating really screwed the place up.

    Criminal masterminds, the lot o' 'em.

    Basically the article says pretty much the opposite of what you've been claiming, the IRA are done, there are a few small splinter groups, most of the active members are young, the security forces are kicking their asses on all sides, they have no popular support and in total, there are only a couple of hundred of them.
  9. CanuckMA

    CanuckMA Valued Member

    The comparison with the IRA can only go so far. The IRA had real, acheivable political goals. Nowhere in their platform did it call for the complete destruction of England. Nowhere did they claim that Britain was Irish territory.
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, as long as it's easy, it must be true then. Easy, lightweight insights are always the best, aren't they?

    Yeah, oops - have you seriously never stopped to think what it really means to say that the mainstream IRA have become 'inactive' - have you never considered what it meant - what it means - to release all those murderers, and declare them 'inactive' - these aren't people that have gone away - a lot of these people were rightfully in prison because they are off the scale dangerous - and now they sit in their homes, being 'inactive'...

    Tell me, if you had a killer living next door, would you be comforted by the fact that he's been inactive for a few years? The Zodiac killer has been inactive for years. The BTK killer was inactive for years.

    You know, you want to think this through on deeper levels, rather than just buying the self serving vainglorious versions put forwards by British and Irish politicians who naturally want this to be their great achievement. It's actually a travesty - a literal travesty of justice.

    No, I haven't really - no one has, not really, which, if you considered the subject on a less lightweight level, you'd start to understand.

    Is a released murderer, sitting in his home, with a gun in his attic, pondering over whether he's sure about the peace process or not a dissident? Is an IRA member who really doesn't believe in the peace process, but is towing the line for now, a dissident?

    Let me ask you this, if Jerry Adams loses control of significant numbers of IRA members, are they the dissidents, or is he?

    You tell me, how many IRA members are happy with the peace process? No one really knows, do they? Even if you were in the IRA, you'd keep it to yourself.

    You need to think further than this. A dissidet group is a separate, splinter entity - and the fact is, none of us, at this point, no where that is going to end up - but what we do know is that the hardest of the hard core were released from prison, so if it does go wrong, they're all out.

    However, fact is, on a much deeper level, you can't assess how much dissident sympathy there is in the IRA - it could be huge and just waiting to burst out - all we know is that we let out their best soldiers, and demonstrated that we will cave in to terrorism.

    And you know, it has to be said, how many people do you think it takes to plant a bomb, or kill a policeman? A handful of dissidents could do terrible harm - and we don't know if those are people we let out of jail, and we don't know if they will gather support - we only know that we taught them that terrorism works. They could kill 50 people tomorrow - we have no idea - you can't measure the seriousness of a threat in simple numbers like that.

    You know, economic regeneration can be gone in weeks - and it saddens me that that's all you care about. Would you have negotiated with the Nazis to set free the architects of the Holocaust and the War, just for peace? Because I wouldn't - I believe that sometimes you have to make the point that you're prepared to fight for what is right, and for justice - jeesh, way to be shallow - all you care about is a bit of regeneration, and for that, the families of the people who were murdered are spat on by the state allowing their murderers to go free? I don't like arguing with people like you - it's such a shallow, self serving view point.

    Well, my actual point, if you'd bothered to read it, is that it is a travesty of justice that murderers were released from prison... the second point being that no one realy knows how this will end up - all we know is we've let out the hardest of the hard core - and the fact is, there's a great deal of suspicion that the peace process was forced on the IRA by American support drying up, NOT from willingness to pursue a peaceful path... which means, no one really knows how much sympathy for the Cause is still out there.

    And if you don't know how much damage two hundred armed terrorists can do, you need to more research.
  11. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well actually I'm a Catholic from an Irish family, and my sympathies on the Irish question are Republican - but I hate all groups that use terror and intimidation, on any level. I have no sympathies for the Loyalists- my comments are addressed to them also.

    It makes my sick to the gut when I hear lightweight new age phrases like 'Negotiating with the IRA didn't show anyone that terrorism works, but it did show the IRA that dialogue works.'

    What, you think that is what we are talking about? Are you for real? Why do you think anyone was even negotiating with them? Do you actually have any knowledge of terrorism at all?

    These people murdered there way to that table, and we released the people who did it from prison... so thanks for the glib, Starfleet perspective - we'll write it on the graves of the victims, as compensation for the justice they were denied.

    As for guns - you obviously don't really undersatand much about terrorism. Guns are largley there to make them feel like real soldiers; what matters is bomb making equipment, sniper rifles, and will. You've no idea howmuch is out there, and one bomb can kill a hundred people. You've no idea - go back to Starfleet.
  12. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Seconded... however I think Fire-quan's diatribes are worth correcting lest any non-informed soul thinks that his opinion reflect reality.

    Fire-quan with every single post you make it clear that you have no real experience or understanding about the IRA or the situation in Northern Ireland. Spelling Gerry Adams name incorrectly for instance really doesn't create the impression that your really that familiar with the whole situation. As for your points:

    Oh dear lord... let's check back with reality here. If the IRA was to restart it's campaign do you know who would suffer most? The people of Northern Ireland not the people of England. Although I sincerely doubt your ability to research this topic, if you actually bother to look back at the history of the Troubles even you should notice that the overwhelming amount of IRA attacks and casualties took place in Northern Ireland not England. As such it's much more likely that me, my home, my family and my friends would be affected than yours if organised sectarian violence was renewed in Northern Ireland. You may be worried about a currently non-existent future campaign against Britain but the murderers your talking about by and large actually return to live in the communities where I'm from. Not to mention that I don't have to imagine the potential harm that such men may cause in the future my friends and family have already been effected and suffered many tragedies because of such men. My point here is that the people with the most right to be offended and threatened by the release of prisoners are the people of Northern Ireland yet almost without exception everyone I know from Northern Ireland recognises such steps as being a necessary requirement if peace is to have a chance. I don't want to see people like Johnny Adair back on the streets but at the same time I understand why it was necessary. Since you haven't ever lived in Northern Ireland I doubt you have the ability to understand why people were willing to accept 'prisoner release' as a lesser evil than 'continued violence in Northern Ireland'. That's an easy choice for you to make sitting in England but as the Good Friday referendum proved the people of Northern Ireland were willing to make compromises in order for peace to have a chance. And regardless of your personal beliefs I can tell you from personal experience that life in Belfast now because of the peace process is completely different from what it was like when I was growing up.

    And I get the impression that you have no idea about what it was like to actually live somewhere where these issues effect your daily life.

    You do know the British army had informants in the IRA right? Only because you give the impression that you regard them as some society from which no knowledge has ever leaked. As holyheadjch has rightly pointed out the arms destroyed matched the estimates of the police, military and various intelligence agencies. I also really think the independent commissions have done more research on this matter than you and they continue to assert that all the evidence points to the fact that the IRA has disarmed.
  13. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    lol... that's hilarious. So you would only count the IRA as disarmed/decommisioned if every single private gun in Ireland was accounted for... lol. Under that definition yeah you're right the IRA hasn't been disarmed but your definition has absolutely no relevance to what 'disarm' actually means for paramilitary groups.

    No MI5 didn't. As holyheadjch has already pointed out the article you linked to actually completely contradicts the argument you have presented. There simply is no way to spin lines like:

    to support statements like your:

    Spoken with the true arrogance of someone who has no experience of what it was like to live in Northern Ireland during the troubles.
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    That sounds like the feeling I get when I see you pronouncing judgment on an issue which you clearly have very little understanding of. The way you talk it sounds like you think the solution was to keep on fighting to the bitter end rather than actually try reaching a political solution. Well once again sorry... but the people of Northern Ireland i.e. the people who were being directly effected by the violence for over 25 years voted on the issue and the vote passed and despite painful concessions I know of no-one in Northern Ireland who would argue that the situation there now is not much improved because of the the peace process.

    Are you for real? What experience do you have with terrorism? How effected have you been by the troubles in Northern Ireland? I've had relatives and friends shot, petrol bombed and killed and I don't harbor as much resentment as you so I have to ask how badly have you been effected by all this terrorism you feel so strongly about?
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  15. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Fire-Quan, how many IRAs do you think exist, or know to exist? To talk of one IRA is simply wrong. And yes, dissidents may be a threat, when read in a British media (and other medias, obviously), but historically the IRA (and the Provos) have taken a very dim view on dissidents. Please get your head around the fact that dissident Republicans are not the same as Dissident members of the IRA.

    Oh, and the bit about the IRA being a mafia group ever since the 20s... either you need to look at your history pretty damn closely, or you need to sack your history teacher...
  16. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Fire Quan I did 2 years in the province, my job Sig Int, and I have rarely if ever head such a skewed paranoid analysis of the republican terror groups. NI is so much better now than when I worked there, punishment beatings have to be stopped and the thugs need jailing but I usually have very little sympathy with the people who end up on the receiving end. It's often a combination of stupidity and arrogance that gets them there.
  17. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    If the IRA were as powerful as ever I am fairly sure they with all this power would have done something by now.

    You don't negotiate with terrorists - if I recall the IRA were defined a militant group rather than terrorists. They had their goals and their political position and they were willing to fight for it. They weren't just trying to cause misery for the british public. I am inclined to say the fact it came down to fighting may be Britains fault but in honesty I know very little about that whole affair.

    Relating back to the situation in Gaza - Hamas are hell bent on fighting, not on proving a point not on acheiving a set political goal. It's the same with anarchists in Britain 'Fight the system' and all that rubbish. If you have a political position you can voice it without getting violent.
  18. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Just to second the count here. I risk sounding like a Republican sympathiser here (I am a republican I've decided, but I'm nonviolent), but to hell with it. Unlike most terrorist groups, the Provisional IRA released a coded warning before each of their attacks. Their worst attack on British soil was in Manchester when they levelled an entire block. But because their codes were purposefully easy to decode no one died. And like everyone has said - their aim wasn't to cause terror but to achieve political goals. I'll go one step further than the count and say it was mostly due to Britain, but we have to remember that we can trace this issue all the way back to the Ulster plantations and William of Orange, so it's not as simple as saying 'it's all the Brits' fault'.

    However, on the anarchistic point, there is a difference between voicing your opinion and acting on it. Many communists and anarchists feel that they can pipe up all they want but nothing will be done, therefore they must take things in to their own hands.

    If anyone fancies reading up on the above, I'd recommend 'Provos the IRA and Sinn Fein', 'Loyalists' and 'The Brits', all by Peter Taylor. I promise they are balanced. But reading isn't for the feint of heart, especially when reading about some of the things the Loyalists did...

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