Interpretation of Silat in Eastern And Western culture

I am relatively new to this forum, but sometimes become dismayed at some the East versus West undercurrents and comments in some threads.

I do not view culture as a static 'thing', rather a fluid process. Culture does not stand still, it is constantly absorbing influence and indeed rejecting it. For example, there has been an interchange of words between English and Malay culture. Interplay of ideas, technologies etc. has always taken place, and aside from some very isolated peoples, culture is a syncretic process.

I do not think anyone is denying the mystical, artistic and aesthetic side of Silat. However, in cross cultural translation does the meaning become lost? Or does it merely become transformed? Terms often do not translate exactly and therefore must often be subject to some kind of transformation. Sometimes there are misunderstanding but they are usualy without bad intention.

My own family is both East and West, so I do not see a conflict.

I do not wish to Tarik kuping harimau!

Salaam

 

Selamat Gajah Silat,
I think the problem in America is worse than simply mistranslation, it is a wholesale "Americanization" of martial arts from different cultures. We "remake" the art into our own American interpretation. This leave the teacher free to claim anything and everything for the art he or she professes to teach. Americans are very arrogant in their approach to other cultures, there's an attitude of outright defiant ignorance of an art's history and traditions.
Sir, most Americans could not find Indonesia on a marked map, let alone an unmarked map. They could not tell you anything about Indonesian history, language, traditions or culture. And they are startled to know there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the Middle East! If I say Pentjak Silat to an American I am greeted by a blank, uncomprehending look. (Which is not true when I say "Karate" but even then I'd lay odds the person couldn't tell me if it were Japanese or Chinese and really its Okinawan in origin) I find its easier just to say Indonesian martial arts.
This ignorance of Indonesia allows people in the USA to get away with all sorts of enormities. Why? Because it so hard for us to know the difference due to our willful ingnorance and apathy about checking up on someone's claims. Whatever else has come out of this particular forum, at least I get to hear commentary about Indonesian martial arts by Indonesians! My teacher, Pak Victor de Thouars at least makes an effort to educate us his students about those aspects of the art: language, culture traditions, Adat, Hormat, and history that many play fast and loose with. As uncomfortable as the process of his educating us may make other pesilat here in America when the truth comes out, the divisions it may create, so be it.
I enjoy languages , so I'm fascinated by Soth East Asian languages esp. where they describe the art I am studying. I know it is sometimes hard to get an exact meaning for any foreign word but I think it is better to struggle with it, so I can understand, you, sir, and your people better.
Hormat

 

In my world "silat" is a word that describes certain broadly based activies. Among them is the martial "way". Include in this "searches" for "truths" ... which is a warriors way, even though it might not involve physical combat.

The concept of a "perguruan" has been IMO very much "modernised" and infiltrated by the structures and systems of Japanese martial arts - because it is also the most popular in the west ... take IPSI for example as a modern unifier and arbitrator of structures. To my mind it's motivated much like the Chinese creation of the national wushu environment. Not necessarily a bad thing, many people have seen a value in there and gone that way. My family "perguruan" or way is another way and we have our own reasons for doing this.

That is OK. Because in the final analysis, does the activity enhance our humanity? Whatever your culture or back-ground, make it your own, and call it anything you like, absob it.

This is no different from the past. The grading of value, has to be based on personal judgement and the value of that judgement depends entirely on how honest the "searcher" is about their individual motivations to themselves.

Why am I learning joint locks, takedowns etc? Is it so that I can wear costumes and live my Jet Li type fantasies? Am I doing it to honour my past? Am I doing it because I'm curious at different aspects of different cultures ... which only show me how similar we all are? Am I doing it because I feel more whole?

There are many ways, and there are many ways in Silat. There is even an American way, it's called American silat, and people need to be honest about this too. Do I have to like it? No. But it doesn't stop it from being valid in its OWN way ..

So ... what is good and what is bad? The question needs to be individualised, the answer isn't to be touted as the only "genuine" article etc ... because based on our motivations we are all "genuine" ... we try the very best based on who we are.

So ... is there a East vs West thing happening? I guess there is. From some perspectives there is much still that needs to be resolved between the two broad cultural streams. History will colour sensitivities.

Rahayu

N.B. In my history, we have seen the west as takers and colonisers, and my family have fought the west up to and including my father.
In many ways that is still happening. Personally I do not care one way or the other whether or not Silat is popularised and spread in the west, but I am curious as to what it becomes ... because it will become something unique, hence my interest in this forum.
I'm not suggesting that silat is the prerogative of the Javanese, but it dismays me that on topics Javanese that there are so many non-Javanese "experts" ready to re-define aspects of my culture to their own semantics and generalities. However, my advice for the Javanese, is that if attempts to elucidate create an adverse response, then let it be and move on to other things. Practice the silat of the forum ... nek ana wong sing ora pingin ngerti, ora usah dadi nesu.

Finally, I acknowledge too that my family were feudal ... and takers in their own way ... so no body is perfect it seems.

 

At the end of the day regardless of where your Silat comes from you have to ask yourself the following:

1) Will your silat work when you really need it?

2) Will this Martial science & Art in some way improve your day to day life in some way or another and truly make you a happy person?

3) Will it help you to stay healthy (physically mentally & spiritually) for the rest of your life?

If it does answer these things for you then it wont matter where in the world you are practicing your Silat. And it wont matter where you are learning it. It is doing what it's suppose to for you. The art itself will teach you once you immerse yourself in it. It will lead you to the places and teachers you need to go further for yourself. The only thing you have to do is do it and believe in it.

East/West is truly relative. What makes surviving and attack or threat on your life in Indonesia any different than surviving an attack in East LA?


peace,

Santiago Dobles

 

Good post yogi, solid sentiments I wish a lot more people here would adopt.

 

Selamat mas Serakmurid
Silat is still quite low key in the UK and doesn't seem to have been commoditised and marketed in the same way as the US. When I search the word Silat on the net, it produces many American sites. Some of these have indeed turned art into a product. There are those sites who are glaringly inaccurate, and I can totaly understand why Indonesian viewers get upset about this. On the other hand there are the sites where the Western practitioners have completely imersed themselves in the art and are very knowledgable.

Selamat pak Sekaralas
nek ana wong sing ora pingin ngerti, ora usah dadi nesu Agreed. One can never understand if one becomes angry!

Interesting comparison between IPSI and National Wu Shu!
Surely any national system loses some meaning when it becomes national? That is to say, it will change in character from a closed intergenerational system. It is therefore the variance of the art at it's point of origin that prevents a simple response to the "what is silat?" question. I've heard many answers to that question, and I suppose they were all the right answer.

Mas Silatyogi
A resounding yes to all 3

 

It's sad really

I'm always amazed when I see a fellow American whine about an art coming to America and becoming 'Americanized.' As if this is inhrently a bad thing. Every culture is fluid like a river, taking water from many sources. Silat is an amalgam art of Indigenous, Indian, Chinese, Arabic, and European influences. One of the great attractions to some of the systems is the recent history of practical usage, and the 'mixed' environment.

All cultures absorb and adapt. Modern Korean arts have an obvious Japanese heritage, yet over time they have adopted more Korean attributes. Okinowan arts claim a Chinese heritage, yet Karate bears only a vague resemblance to the arts that spawned it.

So it is with arts that transfer to other countries. Change and adaptation is inevitable. And now, with the spread of digital media and the internet, sharing and openess expands the interaction, adaptation, and innovation. Sometimes for better, often for worse. But this is true everywhere; in America, in Europe, in Indonesia, everywhere.

Change is the one thing gaurenteed in existence.

Now, in my time in these arts, most of my training has come from Dutch-Indo's... although recently I have made friends trained in solely Indonesian schools. I understand and appreciate both of thier points of views. And among some of the best players I have met, once they are in the room together, animosities caused by history tend to fade. Silat can be a weapon for war, but it can also build brotherhood across otherwise uncrossable bridges.

 

I was whining? Maybe you should check your Indonesian dictionary to see what the words "Adat and Hormat" mean.
Change is not inherently a bad thing (although some things have to stay the same in order for us to be able to perceive change) nor am I saying it should not or does not happen. What I am complaining about is the tendency for Americans to cheapen and distort things from other cultures to make a fast buck. Not to mention our cultural arrogance that assumes all other cultures should be judged by ours, and have to come up to our standards.
I like what sekaralas has to say at the end of his post.

 

Absolutely, it is 'cultural imperialism' but if I aired my views on that I'd better go straight to the politics section and prepare for a fight.

However, something that constantly bewilders me is, how can such a racially diverse country like the US be so culturally unaware?

I have met some globally well informed Americans but they usually turned out to be Canadian (Sorry Serakmurid I just couldn't resist that one...maafkan aku )

Seriously though, I can see why some Indonesians are getting hacked off about part of their culture being commoditised, but I do not like being part and parcel of a generalised view of 'Westerners' either. Likewise, just because someone is Indonesian doesn't make them an instant silat expert. We must try not to generalise, and East and West do often become generalisations. I prefer to concerntrate on similarities rather than difference.

I suppose, as with all art it is up to the individual to interpret in their own manner.

 

Well, maybe my language was a bit strong... but I grow very wary of knee-jerk self hate. I do agree with your clarification though... although I think you will find it is not an exclusive American trait. You will find it everywhere, especially in the homeland of the arts we love. Just human nature, I suppose.

I would take umbrage with the 'culturally aware' comment, but well, there is some truth to that. Although I'm confident that is not exclusively American either.

 

Sorry, it wasn't an accusation Just an observation/rhetorical question. I have met many Americans on my travels and am often suprised by the lack of knowledge regarding the world outside the US. Of course there have been many exceptions too

Mind you, when I'm overseas I am continually embarassed by my own countrymen. I usually hide

 

What, specifically, do you mean by the generalization "Culturally Unaware"?

 

Isn't it self explanatory

OK maybe I should have said "a lack of sensitivity towards other cultures" or is it ethnocentrism "judging another culture from our own cultural perspective"?

I do not wish to generalise about any country.

I was just dismayed at how many threads turn into an 'I'm right about this" arguement, when people are maybe viewing the same point from different perspectives.

 

Interseting ... To me "silat" is a word from the indo/malay goup of languages which indicates a martial way, a codefied method of learning techniques of attack and defence ... whether that be physical or metaphysical.
When I use the term silat, I call Taekwondo a form of Korean Silat. Mustika Kwitang was Kwee Tang's silat (which was probably Souhern Shoalin ... or so I understand) etc. etc. There's Brazilian silat, Japanese silat, Chinese silat, many many versions of silat. Also silat that has roots in Indonesia, while acknowledging that even that has had many influences. As Indonesia was in the past a center for trade, acenter for Hinduism and for Buddhism ... there would have been many influences from all around the region. Even an enemy will influence how we fight by virtue of needing to understand the enemy in order to have an effect.

I think the issue gets clouded at the estuary between keeping traditions and changing taditions. If you choose to be a museum exhibit and keep the traditions, do so with a sympathetic ear to the people who are versed in those traditions. If you are modernist and incorporate techniques into your own traditions, that is fine also, but don't do half baked traditions and even worse ... make up traditions and pass them off as the original. The keepers of culture are the people themselves ... not an academic in the Netherlands, or a Dutch Indo who has lived most of his life in America or Europe. Of course they are free to develop their own tradition, but do not superimpose on the cultural tradition of a people who live that culture.

I have no problem that there are people who teach what they know of whateever style ... but please acknowledge that the style has by default become a unique variation ... there is nothing wrong with that. However the new style is spokesperson for the new variation only.

 

Huh?

 

Brothers....

It quiet similar to what happened to Kungfu. I'm a newbie in Silat World.... It's hard to judge "Eastern and Western" it's more complicated, more to basic purpose "why should I learn this Martial art".

For example in Indonesia, you can found gap between traditionalist kungfu and wushu stylist methods. it also happened to Silat in Indonesia, between IPSI or any organizational and traditionalist. They exist in same geographic.... Indonesia.

IMHO, let's back to basic purpose of which Martial Art you want to join. For example wushu used kungfu as fairy dance stuff, they preview wushu as beauty choreographic stuff. JKD and any MMA concern to easy to use and "fast Martial arts" (my terminology for Martial arts similar to Fast foods). Traditionalist usually pays more attention on mentality development and takes time longer to apply in real situation. No beautiful movement, but more to philosophy, conceptual and spirituals stuff development.

As we did on Mustika Kwitang, we do different way both for IPSI purposes (medals and points) and traditionalist. For Military purposes, of course we can development slower by any philosophical matters since it takes time longer.

Lot people don't know spiritual aspect, philosophy, conceptual of an art. So they get shortcut by many body building method and include their modern stuff in practice. Fast and strong ... so the result is enlarging Muscles, and use Martial Art limited just for application of many forms, this for kick, for blocking, punching. They forgot the spiritual aspect, when they get older they capability decrease. Some traditionalist develop their spiritual aspects, keep practice traditional ways... yeah, they usually got common body shape. But as time goes by, the get older their capabilities more increase.

Lot of traditionalist in USA regarding to my experience closed they class because much students forgot "the spiritual" aspects. They just practice technically and modernized it.

So brothers, ask your heart... what is your Martial Art practice purpose? Find match teacher, match school regarding you objective in MA. It takes too long if you just want to bully another with taichi or any IMA. Just take western boxing.

I have arraged MA Gathering several weeks ago. some people scare that another would steal their forms. It's okay for me, i'm not affraid. so i don't scare to show my forms to public since everyone could copy forms but they won't know "the substance" and it wouldn't work properly.

It's more than just "Eastern" and "Western"....

Salam

 

It's more person and person

I've seen some Excellent Western Silat, and some downright crap Eastern Silat. It's not even style and style, but further down to the individual level of why and how each person trains.

 

Discussing the Cultural Aspects of Silat

Peace to all,

Actually, Serakmurid, Indonesians are often quite ignorant about their culture and history as well. We also have a inferiority-complex that compels us to worship anything coming from the West (if you are secular) or from Wahabi Arabia (if you are fundamentalist Islam). This leads to all sorts of sad things happening.

In this forum I have been repeatedly labeled as a trouble maker, sarong peddler, economic migrant, and chicken by a Guru Besar of Cimande: all because I air my views on cultural aspects of silat, like titles, the use of the keris in Jawa and so on. These attacks by a Guru Besar Cimande are very special experiences to me because in Indonesia it is common knowledge that Cimande has no Guru Besar! O'ong Maryono touched on this subject of the title of Guru Besar in one of his articles in English in his excelent site www.kpsnusantara.com .... Yes Liam, Sir, I am refering to your personal insults here, but I will not go low and insult you back. Rather I ask you to share some knowledge: please tell us one name -or even half a name- of a Guru Besar Cimande in Indonesia. Also, to the mods, why is Silatliam alowed to post personal insults aimed at me in response to intellectual debate about the cultural contexts of the style he teaches? I read the sticky topic rules and understood that personal attacks are not alowed.

Because the mods on this forum are partial, I predict that soon this thread will be locked again in a sort of 'Emperor's New Clothes' manner. If so and if not so, some of you truth seekers might want to join the English discussion forum in www.kpsnusantara.com and on www.cimandefrance.com for a free and open discussion on silat anyway, where views and knowledge can be aired and shared without threads being locked by partisan mods, and where the owner of the sites are true Pendekar who typicaly don't use the title, and are also silat researchers who really love silat and are not in silat to making a halo around their heads. Also there are great discussions going on in the silatbogor mailing list.

Warm salams to all,

KC

 

Hello Kiai
You asked me the following question !

"Rather I ask you to share some knowledge: please tell us one name -or even half a name- of a Guru Besar Cimande in Indonesia "

Here is an answer
Guru Besar Uyuh Suwanda

Guru Besar Herman Suwanda

Guru Besar Rita Suwanda

Guru Besar Dadang Gunawan

Even O' ong Maryon who you quoted from in the past in his article "Woman warriors and Pencak Silat " mentions the following "Guru Besar Himpunan who teaches one of the most respected perguran Schools in west Java" I can give you a longer list if you required.

So what exactly are you on about ? Did you not know these simple facts. Do Indonesian themselves now not know what they talking about. It seem you have one truth and I'm just explaining to you, that this is only your versions. and that in some cases you are wrong.

To finish this off now I see by the start of your thread you know think even Indonesian are very arrogant of their culture. Up on to you came on this forum Ive found most Indonesian to be very educated on their own culture and very open. Ive done dispalys of Cimande in front of Indonesian diplomats and my students have been praise, Ive been asked to help promote Indonesian Culture and help raise money for Indonesian charities and none of the Indonesian I have ever work with ever had a problem with what we doing or promoting but at every occassion possible you have poke digs at us and its seemes now even if indonesian have a different view from yours there are now are irrogant of their culture by your opening remark

"Indonesians are often quite ignorant about their culture and history as wel"l - written by Kiai

. Talk about the Emperor's new clothes.

Kiai some of the things you wrote have been interesting, but you have mar this up with your constant sniping about us and I believe this is now maybe the 11th or 12th thread you brought your disharomy to. I only wish now that we never have help you out at your camden event as it brought us nothing but grief from you

In many cases in Java the title is given to the founder of a school. My title was given to me by my teacher, which I was very honour to received. I dont call myself by any title in the street my students call me by name (Liam) if they wish they can use the title I was awarded , but as long as they respectful I dont really go into titles.

So please Kiai respect the answer you ve been given

I also seen today on the french forum you were writing again about why do westerners teach the use of Keris and Kunjang in combat , as it only used in Java as a pusaka. Again Kiai - bram this is why you rub people up the wrong way, no matter how many times something is explain to you, you keep going back to stir up the pot (and than reading what you said cant understand why you cause so much frictions)
Here is what I suggest you to do go onto ebay next time you on the net and look for information by two leading Javanese Cimande Silat Instructors Hermanda Suwanda or Eddie Jaffi and buy their videos on Keris fighting. Because straight away that blow your views straight out of the water, "that javanese dont use keris in fighting". So either these guys didnt know what they were teaching and you are right or just maybe Kiai you might just be wrong. We discuss this before on the forums so please stop going over old ground again




To answer your question

 

Who is Guru Besar Cimande?

Peace to all,

Hello Guru Besar Liam, thank you for answering me.

I would like to stand corrected but I think that your answer is different to my question. After checking thoroughly www.suwandaacademy.com I think that these people were (are) actually teachers of Mande Muda, a new synthesis and young version of silat, created from many other styles plus Cimande, and although there is Mande Muda Indonesia, the school opperates more in the USA. So the people you mentioned above are not Guru Besar in Cimande and neither did they learn Cimande silat from a Guru Besar Cimande. These people wouldn't claim to be Guru Besar in Cimande per-se so there is still no Guru Besar in Cimande that I know about, but thank you for trying to enlighten me.

The titles Guru Besar used by the people mentioned in your post above carry the meaning of being the top-dog in their school? Do you see any difference with the Guru Besar title you bear? Mostly the title Guru Besar is reserved for the founder of the system and sometimes it is also taken by the inheritor of the leadership of the school which seems to be the case with Mande Muda.

Seriousely I often hear that Cimande has no Guru Besar when I talk about Cimande to practitioners in and around Bogor. Of course I might be mistaken. Please enlighten me if you know better. I would appreciate it if you could share with me the list of Guru Besar Cimande you say you have.

O'ong Maryono's opinion on this matter can be read on http://www.kpsnusantara.com/reflect/english/5_guru_besar.htm


Warm salaams and hormat to all,
KC