Internal Qi

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by 47MartialMan, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    How true or far-fetched is Qi in either keeping the internals in health or actually applying it to harm someone? What is up with some Qi practices, for example; with the tongue on the roof of the mouth, static or odd stationary stances, practices such as Silk Reeling Neigong, Rooting, etc.? Some people believe that Internal Qi has the power to heal
     
  2. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Apparently, a lot of research has been done in China and Qi Gong is available as part of the Chinese Health system for patients recovering from cancer etc... but as I can't read Mandarin I can't help you more.

    Anecdotally, it has helped people feel better and some small scale studies indicate things like Taijiquan/Qi gong might be beneficial to people with arthritis or balance issues. It's not clear if it is better than say, swimming... for people with those issues.

    There is a lot of hokum around Westerners making claims about what traditional Chinese practices can do. A lot more studies need done in the West before we know if these practices help people in the ways they claim.

    All that said...legit practioners of Neijia arts most definitely learn to use their bodies in different ways than other martial arts seem to teach. Try to push or pull someone who's been doing Taijiquan for years and you will see what I mean.
     
  3. Th0mas

    Th0mas Valued Member

    Woo woo and Magic fairy hats...

    I think that basically sums it up.

    (Using Qi to describe martial activities is analogous to using the four humors to describe how modern medical practice combats illness)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  4. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    from the psychosomatic/placebo perspective: as a visualization device, it is something that is processed psychologically and has a subsequent effect, and since all psychological processes are ultimately neurophysiological, their effects will be such as well, and as such may affect the body beyond that which one may expect at the conceptual level. as far as i am aware mindset does play a role in bodily adaptation, including recovery from injury and disease, for this very reason, and therefore systematized visualization methods such as qi might be usable to elicit positive effects, as long as the patient believes they will happen (placebo effect), which is in itself the issue, as the concept of Qi in this instance is undeniable woo woo.
     
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    But, if you already have a ailment or disease, the mind cannot tell the body to heal itself. Indeed a proper mindset will keep up the "motivation". In other words, don't you think the :mind" can only do so much until modern medicine has to take over?

    So from a "internal" aspect, you cannot "heal" yourself through chi-or mind
     
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    absolutely. but it can help things along in certain stages (note that i'm not referring to qi here, but to one's attitude and mindset, with qigong/neigong relegated to a minor footnote as one of many ways to influence the former, not even necessarily a recommendable one)
     
  7. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    If you know someone or test it yourself, that is the best way to find out if doing these things does any good.
     
  8. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    There certainly is a mind body connection that's not fully understood. The mind does have an ability to control the body that is seems somewhat odd. However, I don't think it's "Qi".

    What stuff like Qi Gong does is teaches you how to breathe, which is a good thing. But so does playing a wind instrument, even more so if you learn how to circle breathe.

    If Qi as a concept helps you learn MA better, great. We don't talk about Qi in Judo, but there are little guys in my club that are like rocks. I did ground-fighting with the club's founder once. I weigh 205, and he's 145-ish. When he got a pin, I couldn't budge him. It was like he weighed 250 lbs. To say he has a good base is a gross understatement.
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    also worth bearing in mind that many forms of qigong and neigong, all esoterism left aside, are essentially very soft gymnastics movements, and physical activity is good for the vast majority of people. i would be willing to bet that by removing the notion of qi altogether, or replacing it with a less woo woo visualization (say, something like "imagine your arms and legs are hoses, and when you move, try not to block those hoses"), very similar gymnastic routines may be developed having very beneficial health effects.
     
  10. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Well said! In terms of general health, I use to breath in a very shallow way and not use all of my lungs. Breathing properly (which I learned from Yoga and Qi Gong) definitely has health benefits. I don't think it's anything mystical though.
     
  11. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    There is definitely a change in the body that comes over time, you can not get it by just changing your thoughts !, it takes time.
     
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Could it be that the Chinese do not desire to "completely let go" it because of it being part of their culture?



    Please provide proper medical links to these studies.



    Could it be that Occidentals are lead to believe this because of Asian deception?



    Trying to push or pull someone is no proof of Internal QI
     
  13. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I think you have missed the point being made there. 'Qi' in an abstract concept, and in the context he was using it is basically just good body mechanics utilising relaxation.

    There is no such thing as 'internal Qi'. You know that, everyone with half a brain knows that, so I don't see what is to be gained by starting yet another thread about it. We might as well have endless threads about whether or not unicorns exist.
     
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    [​IMG]

    Proof positive :)
     
  15. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    We really should have an 'Unthank' button for posts like that! :p
     
  16. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    You will need Athens access to see these, but here are some studies:

    From Evidence Base of Clinical Studies on Tai Chi:A Bibliometric Analysis by Yang et al...Beijing University of Chinese Medicine

    http://eds.a.ebscohost.com/eds/pdfv...33-5257d5de8d53@sessionmgr4005&vid=1&hid=4203

    The effectiveness of Tai Chi for patients with Parkinson’s disease: study protocol for a randomized controlled trial by Yang et al... Department of Neurology, Affiliated Hospital of Jining Medical University

    http://eds.a.ebscohost.com/eds/pdfv...a3-97e363aa6725@sessionmgr4001&vid=0&hid=4203

    Applying Tai Chi as a rehabilitation program for stroke patients in the recovery
    phase: study protocol for a randomized controlled trial by Zhang et al...Department of Rehabilitation, Dongzhimen Hospital affiliated to Beijing
    University of Chinese Medicine

    http://eds.a.ebscohost.com/eds/pdfv...e4-4e0d927c6f88@sessionmgr4002&vid=0&hid=4203


    As Johnno kindly pointed out, that wasn't the point I was making. I was simply stating that "internal" arts train develop a different sort of body/mind mechanics. Never suggested it was "internal qi". Thought that was implied in the context of the whole post.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  17. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    Hmm? Not heard of feng shui much?

    So both you and Johnno equate qi as an abstract concept that basically pertains to good body mechanics?

    Then how about acupuncture? Acupuncture (and TCM in general) basically promotes proper qi manipulation and usage. Are there good body mechanics there? Lying down and getting pierced by needles is good body mechanics?

    How about Feng Shui? Does having certain geographical placement of your house and furniture enable good body dynamics (except for certain instances of furniture ergonomics in the office/workplace)?

    These three fields utilize Qi. So how does the concept of Qi tie in to all three fields?

    Or is Qi a concept like functional fitness or inner beauty: "it can mean anything, so it means nothing"?

    At the same time, the concept of Qi is adopted by Japan, resulting in instances of being used like "aiki", "sakki" and "kizeme". SO what does Ki/Qi mean here, and how does it tie to the other fields I mentioned above?

    Or is Qi really like inner beauty? It can mean anything, so it can be a fart, or a feces. And by extension, so any field that utilizes the concept of Qi/Ki: martial arts styles that believe in sakki, AiKIdo (hell, even the name contains Qi/Ki), and kendo (kizeme is a skill attained by the most skilled of kendoka).

    So what really is Qi? Trying to brush it off as good body mechanics doesn't cut it when the term is used in a different field.


    P.S. At the same time, AFAIK, neijia MA refer to good body mechanics as jin (sometimes spelled jing), commonly bandied around in the term fa jin or fa jing aka explosive force. The same with the term chan si jin aka reeling silk (which 47martialman mentioned before). So if these guys use the term jin for good body mechanics, what is Qi when "proper body mechanics" has already been taken?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  18. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Yes, I've heard of it 'very much'. I think it's a load of old nonsense.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for me that's a hell of an over-simplification. Qi is a very ancient concept that has all sorts of uses, some of which are so obvious as to be almost 'common sense', and some of which are just old superstitious nonsense.

    But as far as it appurtains to martial arts, I would say that body mechanics is a big part of it.

    I think acupuncture is a load of old codswallop too.
     
  19. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    But you are using Chinese Affiliated Studies which could be biased

    As I stated, "Could it be that the Chinese do not desire to "completely let go" it because of it being part of their culture"



    I can agree with this



    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nc/

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-infiltrates-the-new-england-journal-of-medicine/
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  20. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I don't think that internationally published studies would be biased just because they happen to be from China. Having glimpsed the papers the methodologies seem sound and they all state that further studies are required. None of them came to any cast iron conclusions about Tai Chi being totally effective. If you have time I recommend you read them.
     

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