Internal power generation

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Simon, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    Why do you think it is internal?, looks more isometric, here is a good test for internal, only one part can be in motion, if outside is moving inside is still, if outside is still inside could be moving if you have internal control., but for sure outside moving will always cancel internal., but there can be a balance, like outside 5% and inside could have 95%, but in the end you should only need 10% physical and 90% internal to apply your techniques.
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Rubbish.

    When one part moves, all parts move.

    It's a basic fundamental of internal training, which is why it's so damn hard.
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    What are you going on about?

    Nonsense!

    One of the key/ core fundamental elements of Yang style TCC is about the body moving together- not parts in isolation.

    What do you mean when you say outside and inside here? What body parts are you referring to specifically? How can you move the outside of your body without the inside moving as well?

    This is the issue I often have with people proclaiming the specialness of Internal arts. They are often full of such vague statements. What specifically do you mean when you say a movement is only 10% physical and 90% internal? I mean really? I would like to see an explanation of how a move can be pulled off with only 10% physical movement. Please tell me you aren't talking magic chi blasts here?
     
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Well it's not my opinion, it is Internal by definition and history of the Chinese martial arts we're discussing.

    That is the Hung Gar Hei and Nei Gong, and some of the most famous (Southern and Northern) internal training in Chinese history is contained in the four Hung gar pillar kuen sets and the Shaolin Qi Gong that is also part of the lineages teachings.

    It's definitely not isometric brother, isometric means static. These sets are mostly isotonic, muscles are moving and joints are changing position constantly.

    An example of isometric Nei Gong would be the some of the "7 Golden Gates" Qi gong, most of which are done in fixed positions without moving muscles or joints. Isometric exercises are indeed a huge part of Hung gar Nei Gong, for sure.

    Here's a good example of Nei Gong isometrics. This is part of Hung gar's "Iron Body" internal training method.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no internal and external just optimal biomechanics: how you frame the training process semantically/conceptually is less relevant.
     
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Actually I must totally,absolutely,positively agree with the 1st paragraph. That's quite accurate and not tosh at all. (I'll be out by the city gate after work waiting for my public stoning).

    However the last sentence is way too absolute-there are plenty of efficient methods for development which include small or large visible movement.At least as far as physical mechanics are concerned.

    Yuck. Not being able to access the net from home since I got 8.1 stinks.I have to check things out here but don't have the time to really get involved.


    This is a reply written last week but unable to send then.

    Ok,but I have no idea what you mean by internal "ideas" . Again,this is why I limit my discussions of "internal" to mechanics not normally utilized by people without specific training for same. These are things which aren't just "found" over time-whether an individual is a world class athlete or your weekend baseball playing neighbor.

    Some of this stuff is pretty simple to learn and do-such as using the muscles of the inguinal (hip) fold as initiators-but I have never heard,read,or seen any western boxer use these muscles in this way-even for uppercuts.As it's really such a simple thing it seems unlikely that over the past 100+ years it's never appeared in print in boxing manuals anywhere.All the other mechanics,tactics,tricks,dirty tricks,etc used by boxers do.

    If you believe folks are just going to discover the even less gross things on their own,sorry,you're incorrect.I don't care who it is,doesn't happen.If it did these things wouldn't be just "Ancient Chinese Secrets" would they?
    The things I'm speaking of are explained as easily as instructing someone to snap their hip,or step at a 45 degree angle.They're just not so easy to do initially as we don't normally utilize a conscious control of these things.Unlike stepping,say.

    Look,you can control your eyelids blinking because it's fairly obvious,you know you blink, can feel the blink.One just has to practice to attain control. However,something like I was kidding Han about,consciously lengthening and contracting the tissue between one's ribs, isn't something that's normally going on,so unless one is taught to do it.... I just don't see someone stumbling across it,attaining conscious control,and then putting in the whole mechanical package for utilization in combat.
    If it all was that simple to find and figure out,then you should be able to tell me what the possible purposes or end results can be,or just how it fits in with other mechanics-and which ones.

    I don't know how one would consciously notice in the middle of fighting that for example, one's shoulder well opened or closed.I also don't know any reason such mechanics which the body does not ever normally use would just "happen" in the midst of combat when the areas have never been exercised,consciously OR unconsciously-the body just doesn't "do" them on its own.

    I'm more inclined to believe these mechanics,or their forebears,came out of the Chinese "yogic" type practices. Some Indian yogis can exercise surprising control over some things,like their heart rate. I don't think they learned it while doing the 100 yard dash.

    I don't know about "deeper understanding". You're making this stuff sound as heavy mumbo jumbo as what you pointed out earlier.
    I don't disagree with most of that,but there are those who don't have to have demo/compliant conditions to actualize what they do.I certainly never made any claims to being some big honcho practitioner,but even I was able to ingrain enough of these things so that they worked in chaotic,violent time frames-it ain't magic.
    Well...that seems rather obvious.
    Whatever "getting lost in being internal." means. My background is simply that this "internal" training is for the purpose of doing bad things to other people.All one has to understand is "how to"-just like anything else.


    I don't know,but I'm sure you could write a book extrapolating meaning from ambiguous quotes and find an audience no matter how off the wall your interpretations are if you make it sound "heavy" enough!

    Your first sentence directly above shows why the idea of "internal" systems is so ridiculous. But then the terms "internal" and "external" were never defined for the sake of discussion here,were they?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I have one simple method for defining Internal and External power. External power is unilateral, like a cannon that has to reload after each shot. Internal power is bilateral, like a 50 cal machine gun that rapidly fires and can change direction without loss of power.

    One key point for internal power is maintaining proper structure with relaxation. If for instance, I lean too much in one direction, I can use that lean to generate power, but I would not be able to change direction and immediately strike along another attack vector with the same power. I would first have to shift my weight due to my excessive lean, which takes extra time.

    I would say that using excessive lean for power is external power because I cannot change direction and immediately attack to another vector with the same power. In fact, I would lose power attacking in other directions rapidly.

    On the other hand, development of good internal power allows for the instant changing of direction without loss of power.

    I use a percentage systems. For example, watching someone spar, I could say they maintained proper structure 70% of the time. Meaning 70% of the time they remained mobile, able to change direction in an instant without loss to power.

    I'm not including the obvious where someone can change direction and attack instantly along a different vector but have little or no power in doing so. This is just happy slappy stuff. I actually mean change direction and hit with power rapidly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    Spot on :)
     
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    An example of an internal practice that does not require physical movement. not martial arts but none the less a genuine internal effect.


    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIDVNkPOb4"]The Dutch "Iceman" Confounding Medical Science - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    We are discussing internal martial arts though.

    While stuff like this is interesting, it does nothing to answer my questions about how one can pull off a martial arts move with only 10% physical movement (as claimed on this thread). It is an amazing thing to control things like body temperature, but what relevance does it have to fighting better?

    Let's not forget the original post of this thread is about internal power generation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    For roundhouse kick, What can an "internal" guy do any different from an external guy?

    Anybody wants to answer this?
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would say that a claim for 10% physical movement is more of a metaphor pertaining to what is visible to the untrained eye. Only the surface movements are seen, but the movements done under the surface are not easily seen.

    One saying would be that all movements done by the human body consists of circles (or spirals) and as these are internalized you get smaller and faster circles.

    However, I would say the explanation is lacking actual measurements/data. I like to use the bilateral power explanation to complement. For example, let's say you have a wet towel that you want to dry. You can wring the towel, which consists of squeezing and twisting. Wringing is down most efficiently by twisting in opposite directions, creating torque. This squeezes the water out of the towel. So internal power can be generated by using the principle of torque. Under the surface, you create torque and you unleash this torque to add power.

    For example, say I throw a punch and want to throw a second punch rapidly. I punch and by leading with the waist, near the end of the punch, I start to move internally in the opposite direction. My punch is still moving through the target but I'm already creating torque internally that will be used to add power to my next punch. This movement would not be visible to an untrained eye.

    Edit: Just a warning that leading with the waist takes a long time to perfect (not that I have perfected anything). I give the warning not because of the time, but because of the possibility of self-injury if you try to progress too quickly. I'm not sure if hernia is the right medical term, but basically, the forces can be greater than the body can take, causing injury.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  13. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    The first thought that popped into my mind was the video of Bruce Lee demonstrating his 1-Inch-Punch.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_LCs1eTZ9I"]Bruce Lee one inch punch (rare footage) - YouTube[/ame]

    Whether the terms 'internal' or 'external' are relevant in this example - that's down to individual interpretation. But you have a martial technique, delivered with a small amount of physical movement, but supported by a structure that drives the force through the body and expressed it via the fist. Certainly, it's not tai chi, bagua, xingyi etc - but I certainly think it's in the same ball-park, as an example.

    ---

    On the wider topic;
    When I practice, I have an external shape, even when not in any posture, or not engaged in any movement, I cannot escape the fact that I am a physical being, with an external shell that I move around.
    When I work nei-gong, I can only do so in accordance to my physicality. I can muse over theory of 'internal' and 'external' as much as I like, but if I want to develop and experience for myself, I have to explore these 'internal' concepts via my physical, 'external' shell. That's going to including moving, stillness - everything inbetween.

    Tai Chi is the INTERPLAY of Yin and Yang - not the isolation of each. Without it's counterpart, either one becomes devoid of meaning. We have to understand that Internal exists within External, and External experiences Internal. I can't think of a better way to put it at the moment.
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I did sort of answer in my last post.

    Internal guy should be able to add power using the principle of torque.
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The problem of "body push/pull limbs" is it's too slow. For example, when a mosquito flies over your head, you use both palms to smash on that mosquito, will your use your body to push your arms, or will you move your arms first and your body follow (body chase arm)?

    When talking about power, you have to talk about speed as well. When you consider both power and speed, you will find out that "internal" and external are just trade off and nothing more.

    When discussing "internal", I always like to put up CXW's Fajin clip as example. In this clip, all his punches take about 1 second to fully generate power. In fighting, you just don't have that "1 second".

    This just make you wonder. "Internal" sounds like a good idea. But is it "practical"?

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj6UaEay5Lg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj6UaEay5Lg[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think you are talking in very practical terms.

    However, expand the situation to the transitions. When the hands are clapping in an attempt the smash the mosquito, there is a transition time between the first clap and when you can clap a second time with power and speed. Internal eliminates much of the transition time because it starts the "second clap" before the "first clap" is ended. So in effect, you don't have hard stops and goes, but more continuous motion.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Let's change the focus of the eyes from power to speed with power. Look at around 26-28 seconds in the clip. This is really the only demonstration of internal power. Two rapidly executed punches with power. IMHO.
     
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    At 26-28, he utilized the pulling from the 1st punch to generate power for his 2nd punch. That's 100% external method and used in external style such as the Baji system - compress and release, compress and release.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHtU4559psE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHtU4559psE[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMCZtMMnM_g"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMCZtMMnM_g[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It isn't just a matter of whether it is used or not, it is important to know how the movement is developed.

    I'm specifically talking about generating torque by leading in the opposite direction of the strike. I can say that I was totally unaware of such things in karate all the years I trained in it. Instead, the moving in the opposite direction could result in pulled punches rather than creating potential power.

    Take a look at what is going on at the waist. Small movements very hard to see that moves in the opposite direction as the rest of the body just as the punch finishes. The torque created from this is unleashed to start the second punch.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Stop being obtuse and, for the third time, answer the question.

     

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