Internal power generation

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Simon, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I definitely agree that attribute vs technique is far less nebulous than internal vs. external, but it still becomes more fuzzy the more precisely you try to delineate it.

    Neurological deterioration is just as much a factor of ageing as "physical" deterioration (again, not a real distinction, as neurons are physical things). So balance, coordination and other things associated with technique also deteriorate.

    I would say that training throughout the ageing process is a matter of shifting focus from one set of attributes that are deteriorating to another set that are still improving, or at least not deteriorating as quickly as others - particularly sensitivity and timing. You also change how you fight to make up for losses in cardio, strength and balance. Of course, technique is a big factor in this, so your assertion is generally true in a broad sense, but at the same time not technically true once you look deeper into the processes.

    Being a spritely youth who has yet to hit 40, I am saying this from observations and having learnt a great deal from physio's who specialise in geriatric and neuro rehab, although having trained through a debilitating chronic disease in my 20's I do feel I have a better grasp of it than most martial artists my age.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I agree.

    I ncidentally I am a qualified SLT, who has worked in an acute rehabilitation unit with patients recovering from stroke and TBI, so while I'm not a neurologist, I understand the impact of neurological impairment on both physical function and cognition as well as the boundary blurring that exists beneath the seemingly solid distinctions of mind and body at a base level.

    I guess the terms 'attributes' and 'technique' although clearer (by far I would still say) for functional use/distinction with a given model are still much more open to interpretation than I thought when first posting.
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Just to elaborate, I think the attribute vs technique notion is yet another hangover from enlightenment dualism. Neural systems are physical too.

    Here's some effects of ageing on neural systems, and bear in mind that active martial artists will notice these effects much sooner than physically inactive people:


    As you age, your brain and nervous system go through natural changes. Your brain and spinal cord lose nerve cells and weight (atrophy). Nerve cells may begin to pass messages more slowly than in the past. Waste products can collect in the brain tissue as nerve cells break down. This can cause abnormal changes in the brain called plaques and tangles to form. A fatty brown pigment (lipofuscin) can also build up in nerve tissue.

    Breakdown of nerves can affect your senses. You might have reduced or lost reflexes or sensation. This leads to problems with movement and safety.

    Slowing of thought, memory, and thinking is a normal part of aging. These changes are not the same in everyone. Some people have many changes in their nerves and brain tissue. Others have few changes. These changes are not always related to the effects on your ability to think."

  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Cool, I find all that stuff fascinating :)

    I completely agree that attribute vs. technique is clearer by far! Although, as you may have noticed, I can be a stickler for the details... to a fault for some people :p
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you get older, if you have to fight, you will try to use your best technique to finish your opponent ASAP. You no longer use soft, yield, sticky, follow, sink, ..., those strategy just too slow. Instead, when your opponent attacks you, you jump in and attack him at the same time. Whether you may win or you may lose, the result will be shown within the initial 3 seconds. You can't afford to box your opponent for 15 rounds.

    If you can take your opponent down before he only has chance to punch you once or twice, that will be the best strategy.

  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, training through chronic pain and fatigue was a great lesson in intent for me, and I found the same things.
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If speed + power = external, I'll say the older you are, the more external you will be.

    If you want to finish a fight within 3 seconds, will you use

    - external (that you move in and do it), or
    - "internal" (that you touch, feel, wait, and ...)?

    The "internal" approach just take too much time.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  8. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    That's the best strategy at any age! :p
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Isn't it more about timing?

    You have far more experience of reading people, so you can time your pre-emptive or intercepting actions better, without having to be faster than your opponent.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, but many young bucks like to fight, not just deal with people in the most efficient way possible. Efficiency doesn't give you the buzz and spectacle that a fair(ish) scrap does.
  11. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Your logic does not make sense, if you are older , why do you have more external?

    I would say you would wait for first mistake or opportunity and capitalize on it, if your ability is low and you can not take advantage of opportunities , then leave or get a weapon to balance out your disadvantage.
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, when you get older, you start to lose your speed, balance, flexibility, endurance. What will you have left? May be only your strength. If you can lift 150 lb when you are 20, you should still be able to lift 150 lb when you are 70.

    In other words, the old person MA skill should concentrate around "strength".
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There's no time for waiting for mistakes.

    The skill comes from turning a good attack into a mistake by accurately anticipating, and continually adapting to, your opponent's actions.

    Either that or wiping them out before they have fully decided on a course of action. Which is again a function of anticipation through experience.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't think so.

    "aging process leads to distinct muscle mass and strength loss. Muscle strength declines from people aged <40 years to those >40 years between 16.6% and 40.9%."


    Through technique you may be more efficient at utilising your strength, but it is inevitable that, if you were as active before your 40's as you are after, you will not be as strong.
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    40 is a long time ago for me. I can't speak for others but for myself. I have never stopped my weight training. Today (I'm 69), I can lift as much weight as I could when I was young.

    All my students said that my "head lock" strength is more stronger today than 10 or even 20 years ago. In CMA, Gong Li = the number of years that you have devoted your training time into it. The more years that you have put in, the more Gong Li that you will get back.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  16. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    If that was true wouldn't the Olympics be full of a lot of old people.

    I think your students are just being nice to you, or getting old themselves and their pain threshold is getting lower.

    Can you do the same amount of pull-ups that you did when you where 20?.
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I can do more at 42 than I did at 20 - what's your point?
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    As you get older you train and perform smarter - Guro Dan being one example
  19. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Going from 1 to 2 is not what I am talking about, if your in shape at 20 years old and your now 70 years old and same weight, I would say that your number should drop.

    My point is when you age you will loose your physical muscle strength.
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    As I have said, when you get older, you start to lose speed, balance, flexibility, and endurance. Those are needed in all MA sport. Strength by itself is not enough.

    When I was young and worked partner drills with my students, they didn't complain much. It was in the past 10 years that I had to take easy on them since they started to complain.

    I don't do much pull-ups in my training. But I do 60 lifts. When I was young, I used to do 10 lifts per set and 6 sets total. Today, I like to do 15 lifts per set and 4 sets total with the same amount of weight. I hope I can do 20 lifts per set and 3 set total when I'm 80 years old. :)
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016

Share This Page