Discussion in 'Silat' started by serakmurid, Feb 24, 2006.
If I'm not mistaken, Guru Plinck did pay a visit to Holland some years back. (He was actually born there.) He was teaching seminars in Sweden, I think, and went to visit some of the Sera people.
He has a couple of pukulan techniques he showed us that he said were from the Dutch guys.
Currently, he is in Sweden (or is it Finland?) working with the Plinck-Sera students for a couple weeks, but I don't think he has plans to make it to Holland this time.
Guru Bob Vanatta never heard Pendekar Paul use the term, and he and I first heard it on Guru Plinck's Bukti tape from 1997. I brought that tape with me and aired it with my teacher at the time (1997) in Colorado Springs, CO.
Guru Cass Magda told me he came up with the title. Guru Plinck said it was himself that did it and Guru Cliff says also that it was Guru Stevan Cause Pendekar Paul never used a name for that concept. I believe it was Guru Plinck.
A smilar thing occured with Guru Cliff. Pendekar would always say "Soft Shoulder" Guru Cliff took it a step further and analyzed it to find the actual angle's used by the Pendekar to make things more effective and make things work 100% all the time with out guess work.
I have seen video of Pendekar teaching Bukti Classes & Serak classes in many instances there was no name for a lot of the stuff shown.
So It makes sense that the senior gurus would inturn anazlyze the concepts and techniques and then come up with a "Western" way of naming in order to understand it for themselves and be able to pass it on to their students. Also it helps the "westerner" get what is going on and how to effectively recreate what the Pendekar could do with much ease.
I watched again all my Bukti & Serak, and seminar videos yesterday and nowhere did I see or hear Pendekar say "Base Angle Leverage". He occasionally says you have to look at the angle. That is about.
I find it VERY hard to believe that this is the most stupidest comment you ever read, actually your comment is STUPID.
By the way where's your facts, please share.
"The most abundant element in the Universe is Stupidity" - Frank Zappa
BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE first came on to the scene with Guru Plinck's Bukti Video.
if you watch all the Bukti Negara PDT Sambut & Djuru Tapes never once are those titles or terms used.
Not to say Pendekar Paul doesn't understand the concept it is evident that he does and he is a true Bad ass and MASTER of the art and I am sure Mas Djut & Pak Serak, J Devries & Ventje also understood the concept or "principle" as well. But the Name BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE was given to the silat community by Guru Plinck.
On a side note Guru Cliff told me he saw a video of the dutch training that Pendekar brought back with Guru Danny Hubrechts from Holland and they emphasized more the usage of Tiga and Pukulan and they have a different way of even punching in their djurus and movement. It was not as refined as PDT's approach. But still effective none the less.
Maurice's & Rudy Tirlinden's movements remind me more of Kuntao .
A gentle reminder gentlemen, no need for the words you, stupid and are in the same sentence ...
Next time I see it I wont be so gentle!
Isn't it called PUKULAN Serak? So this should be the single most important part of your training, especially in the beginning phases. I dabble with some pukulan and all I hear is: 'Train your pukul, train your pukul!'. Pukulan is not just the addition of punching techniques in a silat style, but it's the 'art of punching'
What do you mean with 'not as refined as PDT's approach'?
I was given this reply by a friend who is familiar with Serak in Holland:
For your information
Stevan Plinck came into contact with someone who trained under family de Vries
Two years ago..
The deal was made to visit us when he returned from Finland
Too bad we never heard from the man again....
Strange that he still received some techniques from the dutch serak-players....'
The leveraging and the usage of angles and expoliting angles in all movements and attacks & Take downs dont seem to be as emphasized as it is with PDT and his methodology and those that trained under him.
Are these the same folks that trained Cass Magda?
Cause Cass would never reveal his Dutch sources when I would ask.
Also are these the same folks that the Pendekar & Danny Hubrechs filmed doing stuff and showed Guru Cliff & Guru Lou Campos video?
"The most abundant element in the Universe is Stupidity" - Frank Zappa
was that not ok?
I was just adding alittle from one of the greatest musicians ever.
Sorry if it offended you.
Thats fine yogi, as I said it was just a reminder for people to be nice ...
No offense was taken by me.
Thanks for the clarification. I can't claim to keep track of all Guru Plinck's travels, only that he did show us some of the pukulan techniques that he indicated were from the Holland branch. He allows as how they are good fighters and that he respects what they do, never said anything different in my hearing.
As I recall, the techniques he showed us go back several years -- certainly more than two.
Guru Plinck doesn't make a living as a silat teacher, isn't wealthy, so travel is usually paid for by his seminar students. Dropping by a different country on one's way home isn't always possible, time- or finance-wise.
The pukulan aspects are certainly important. One of the things we hear often in class is, "When in doubt, hit."
I expect that the comment about Paul de Thouars's refinement has to do with him being able to close the gap and do the finishing throws with some skill, and that his focus is less on the hitting aspects and more on that area.
Doesn't mean it is necessarily better, just a different way of approaching things.
The older you get, the more important it is to learn how to fight smarter, not harder, least that's how I see it.
yes i didnt mean it was "better" than the dutch way I mean it was more detailed in the take downs and the use of leverage and angles. Cause its true as you get older you have to fight smarter and more resourcefully.
Silatyogi, how can you make such assumptions based on the stories of a third person or on videos, which obviously will NEVER show you the level of detail that a person to person instruction will give you? In my opinion you have to feel the pain to know if punch A is the same as punch B or C. On movie they look exactly alike but that doesn't say a thing! In punching I believe (but I'm only a beginner) there is as much refinement, angles or even leverage as in throws!
Someone (wasn't it Bruce Lee?) said: In the beginning a punch is just a punch but when you get further you will notice that a punch is not just a punch and in the end you will realise that a punch is just a punch I think most people will get to the first two phases
I agree with Steve Perry that it's a different way of approaching things...Pukulan or Pentjak Silat.
Well did I say the Dutch way Sucked..no its different way. From what I have seen its still effective I just prefer what I have seen.
Yes you are right punches do require refinement...Maybe the videos I saw didn't show all the bag of chips in the pantry.
Infact I wish I could see it for my ownself in person one day....And feel what you are taking about All I know is what I have experienced and watched on video (which when you know "how to " see you get a lot from video)....as for getting stuff 3rd person....we are not taking about getting the info from folks that don't know squat about silat we are taking about folks who have seen it felt and trained it at one point. Its not like my teachers never trained Dutch Silat.
I remember when I trained with Guru Cass Magda who did in fact study in Holland and I took many many falls from him, and felt his Pukulan. And he would show me a PDT way & what he learned in Holland. It was in fact very good to say the least but I didn't feel like it was going to break my neck or dislocate my spine like when i took falls for Guru Cliff who spent 19 years with PDT & and some good time with Guru Plinck aswell. Cass was doing a lot of hitting off of tiga to a sapu...and doing drills of this over an over again. Which he said was Dutch way........I don't live in holland you do so maybe you might have a better "eye" and picture of Serak than we over here do.
Cass even told me well see PDT doesn't emphasis Pukulan like THe dutch do..Yet you go see my teacher Guru Cliff and he will tell you Pendekar Paul always emphasized Pukulan.
When I Trained with PaK harold Koning who also is DUTCH and he also does Dutch Silat althoug its not Serak it is still pukulan style and his emphasis is heavy Pukulan I have felt his hits aswell very effective yet again his Take downs had although effective didn't have the refinement I found from PDt's approach.
Yes hitting require refinement and Pukulan IS important but if you can use less to do more than more power to you. If you are just hitting with out knowledge of where to hit you will be working harder to get the job done.
If you are hitting with out awarenes of shoulderpositioning you are also over working. If you are hitting with out awareness of body alignment to maximize power you are also doing more work than you have to.
I would like to see more of the Dutch Pukulan Serak so I can make a better assessment for myself how they operate. but so far from what I have seen its good and effective but not the whole piece of the pie. If you can enlighten me please do so. I honestly do want to learn more and see what is out there when it comes to Serak.
If i can knock a guy out and completely disable him from hurting me and still survive then things are moving in the right direction. If i am only exchanging punches with someone I am not doing what I need to to survive a confrontation and dont have the refinement to take him down fast or incapacitate him and get rid of the problem and have to rely on only hitting I might find that I have a problem especially when you are dealing with more than one person.
No...Cass Magdas pukulan is definately not the same as the dutch flavor. And for having trained/studied in Holland....to quote a dutch Serak student: 'having trained is something else than dropping by 2 times'...
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