Inside Kung fu Article

Discussion in 'Silat' started by serakmurid, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    great posts steve perry,good observations bobbe,...tuankaki-aka m.roberto-i hope your training goes well with steve plinck..hes a good guy..dear andrew the mas roen jurus are done with the opposite of your lead,genius is doing not b.s ing..what you can do inside you can do outside,what you can do high you can do low,one lead to another,thats not genius ,its called training.. :woo:
  2. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    monyet nakal---iam just one of the many that spent lots of money on vdt iam no longer angry,just a little wiser.i agree what bobbe had to say,do the dethouars even acknowledge the damage that theyve done over the years?alot of people went down that road with serak after the famous dan inosanto article claiming that it was such a deadly art..i guess the big question is why as martial artists we keep looking for some missing element or some new art or technique..look up ramana--its all about self realization.maybe we need to look inside ourselves and not continue to look for some guru with all the so-called answers..evreyone on this page is a martial artists with his own answers,his or her own reality...good luck on your own journey-- :Angel:
  3. Orang Bayangan

    Orang Bayangan New Member

    I guess what comes around goes around

    Don't you find this just the smallest bit hypocritical?

    When you were Vic's fair haired boy you gleefully attacked everyone who he pointed you at, you smeared people who you had never even met, and you were a pivotal part of the rumor mill that was putting out that Stevan Plinck was deficient in his Silat. Everyone who has spent time on the public and private forums and mailing lists has seen this.

    Now you complain because you were treated in the same manner that you treated others?

    If you were still with Vic wouldn't you still be raking his "enemies" across the coals (behind their backs)?

    So now you try to hitch your wagon To Guru Plinck's star. The trouble is that your past is still with you.
  4. marcusknight

    marcusknight Valued Member

    I'm a raw newbie to the Silat world. I find it sad to see that the same politics that are prevalent in my "homeworld" of Chinese Martial Arts are alive & well in the world of Silat.

    Having no axe to grind, I ended up sending a PM to both Mr Perry & Mr Astle. Mr Perry was nice enough to send me a speedy reply to the issues I asked him about. By the same token, Mr Astle took much time & energy in sending me multiple e-mails answering my questions regarding the art of Serak (no politics lest anyone froth at the mouth---just technical questions).

    Personally, I'm just looking for an effective Silat system to add to my repertoire. I could care two pins about lineages, pedigrees, past feuds, grand poo-bahs or people's hurt feelings over past wrongs. I'm interested in two things: 1) Does the system accrue the tangible combative benefits that it claims and 2) Does it fill a persoanl need for me. All else to me is superfluous.I've narrowed down my choices to Serak & the Mande Muda/Harimau classes that are in my area.

    Personally, I'm grateful to Mr Astle for having posted this thread regarding the article. I purchased it and found it interesting.

    Respect to Monyet Nakal. Thank you for your post. A true breath of fresh air.
  5. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    Marcusknight, let me tell you straight out: There are no lack of fools in ANY system. This thread alone could teach you that, whichever part you believe. Go to a school & get your hands dirty, that's my advice. Look for a teacher worthy of the name, not the art. A good teacher in Yoga trumps a sucky teacher in Silat every day. Don't just "sit in on a class", pay for a month (or three) and check things out. If there is reason to be suspect, you'll see it in the first few months. If they make you sign a contract for longer than that, RUN FOR IT.

    That's the best advice I could give you. Hope it helps.
  6. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Your Choice

    I understand your distress, I find a lot in the art is sad. I have to disagree with your comment that what you see is "politics." Nobody is trying to get elected to anything in this thread. Nothing devious or secretive here trying to improve my status. My teacher isn't looking for new students. I was offering the benefit -- such that it is -- of my experience in an art in which you are an admitted newbie. There are long-standing contentions here, and some of them are useful to know for a potential student.

    Here's a simple, hypothetical question. Say that there are people who are outright frauds claiming to teach an art. How are you going to figure that out if you don't hear it from somebody who can tell the difference? As a newbie, you don't have the direct tools.

    We have some of those. They don't know Sera from a saddle sore. Yet they have sold video tapes, done magazine articles, and claim to teach the art in their own schools. You know who they are? All the serious Sera players here do, from our branch of the tree or from Pak Vic's. One in particular we all agree on. (Though we didn't used to agree on him. He was the fair-haired boy of a particular style, put forth as the next big thing, praises sung to the sky. And then he did a little metaphorical back-stabbing.)

    Would you like to start studying under somebody like that and a year or three down the line, find out he wasn't teaching you what you thought you were getting? That a lot of what he showed you might get you handed your head by somebody who really knew how to move? This is the real danger. Not that you get ripped off for your tuition -- but that you think you have a tool and if you try to use it, it will fold up like a cheap potmetal butter knife.

    But you should care. And you make my point, sir. You know the recipe for rabbit stew?

    First, catch a rabbit ...

    If you want useful advice about something you don't know, better to ask somebody who has the knowledge. Which is why you came here. And the first thing you have to do is determine, if you get two differing opinions, which, if either, is true.

    From where I sit, if you get your knowledge of silat from a magazine article that a number of knowledgeable readers find amusing rather than factual, you do yourself a disservice. All that great stuff about Bapak Sera and his heritage, it's a great story.

    Nobody can prove any of it. Much of it is pure conjecture. A lot of it doesn't make any historical sense at all, if you start to examine it with any kind of criticial eye. But -- how would you know that?

    If I'm reading a detective novel and the hero, who is supposed to be a pistol expert and crack shot, shoves a clip into the butt of his revolver, I stop reading and put that one down. If the writer makes that kind of mistake about something I know, what kind of mistakes is he making about stuff I don't know? He can't be trusted.

    If somebody lies to you about the weather, the time, and what color socks he is wearing, are you going to be disposed to believe him about more important stuff? Like, say, your life?

    Because a thing is written down does not make it real, and certainly that includes my posting here. In any article on anything, the intent and bias of the writer needs be taken into account. You figure you'll get an objective account when the writer is a senior student of the man featured in the piece?

    How do you determine who can tell you the truth? That's the trick. One way is to listen to opposite points of view, compare them, and see which seem to make the most sense to you. Then check them with others. That's one of the things this forum can do -- offer up different experiences and opinions.

    Listen. Learn. Then go look for yourself.

    You asked me a question about the art and I gave you as honest an answer as I could. I wouldn't be at all surprised if my response was on the opposite end of the spectrum from any you got from Guru Andrew. You have to decide which seems more valid. I'm guessing you've already made your mind up, but I hope you considered it with care.

    I would love to agree with you, but I've seen the axe that Monyet Nakai carries and grinds, and the air wafting off the gory edge is anything but fresh. The old why-can't-we-all-just-get-along refrain sounds reasonable. It'd be great. I'd love it. Peace, love, and harmony, my old hippie ideals.

    I'd be more disposed to believe it was heartfelt if I hadn't been on the receiving end of some mean-spiritied and untruthful comments from that part of town. Somebody who claims the high road but who got there by a short cut on the low road might be viewed with a certain amount of ... caution.

    Which is what i'm trying to offer you.

    You will do what you will, but my advice to you stands. Sera is a fine system, broad, deep, and effective. It's fairly simple, but that doesn't mean the same as "easy." I didn't know I'd been searching for it for thirty years until I found it. If I am so blessed, I intend to stay in it until I fall over dead. But if somebody tells you that you'll have enough of it in a few months to be street lethal against anybody with any kind skill, best you hang on to your wallet.

    Good luck.
  7. Monyet Nakal

    Monyet Nakal Valued Member

    With even greater due respect, you seem to be under the impression that my comments were directed solely at you. Let me assure you they were not. I attempted to single out TuanKaki and yourself in the attempt to discourage exactly that interpretation. I apologize if I achieved the opposite result. If I was attempting to address or single out any individual poster it would be the one who I perceived initially steered this thread towards its currently resulting and not originally intended direction.

    I've read through this thread a few times and attempted to be open-minded about its contents and I honestly do not see any "cheerleading" or "flag-waving." I only saw an individual forced into attempting to defend himself, his teacher and his association from the "slings and arrows" of others with the best ammunition he had available (should we expect less from anyone else) whereas yourself and others seem to see an "hallelujah" choir blindly singing Pak Vic's incapacity to do any wrong.

    I know Mas Andrew well enough to assure you that he does, in fact, "know his stuff" when it comes to the study of Serak, and if you and he had the opportunity to train together than I guarantee you that you could both gain much from the experience. If he is biased in his knowledge of recent social politics in specific tjabangs of the system, well I would submit that one only can quote from the books he has available to him, and if you really felt obliged to educate him from the perspective of other viewpoints that he might not normally be privvy to, well than might not a less public attempt to embarrass him served better? I freely admit that I should follow that self-same advice in regards to this post, but I also confess that I am not sure you would recieve my message were I to do so. (Perhaps that was your concern as well?)He did not post this thread positing as a trumpeting archon of Pak Vic's. If he is guilty of anything in this thread it would be that he was under the false impression that past, high-ranking students of Pak Vic's could set aside their personal feelings to give an unbiased commendation of Pak Vic and all that they have learned from him regarding the art of Serak. I would admit that this was an error on his part but not an unanticipatted one from anyone with the expected amount of zeal and customary hormat to his teacher. (Should we expect any less from you or any other person here?) All of the former seniors he listed are all tremendous martial artists and were there a competition I would put my money on any of them against any other competitors but they all have decisive personal reasons for leaving the organization as well and I don't need to see all sides of the story to know that one should not expect glowing accolades from any of them, but I also would not too harshly fault that desire in others.

    You will note that he did not say anything to refute your stated primary reason for posting and that is, I would assume, because he has no personal, first-hand knowledege of who and when the exact terms "base, angle and leverage" were first created and again, with all due respect intended, I would suggest that neither do you (and believe me, I do not doubt your records on when the terms were first mentioned, merely the logistics on whether or not you were there when is was first conceived.) Personally whoever came up with the etymology behind the terms "base, angle and leverage" doesn't matter that much to me. the fundmentals of the structure seem so fundamental to the study of Serak that if, indeed, Guru Plinck did come up with that particular label (and even the rational behind it) then he does indeed deserve my kudos for his perception, but its incorporation into the system seems to me so intrinsic and to go so far beyond mere semantics that it seems unnecessary to participate in your argument other than beyond a personal allegiance or agenda. I am in no way saying this is dogma, and it certainly is not intended as a further challenge, I'm simply saying that to me it doesn't really matter who came up with it. I appreciate it for the understanding that it gives.

    If you took my rumblings of "hearsay" and "innuendo" to apply to your posts than I do apologize for that as well. I am sufficiently aware of your history in the art.The message I was attempting to convey was not to dispute the veracity of any single post let alone yours (I am well aware that that I am ill-qualified to do so) but simply to question the *merit* of the direction taken by this entire thread in general. Other than to stand side-by-side with a brother, my wishes were, for the most part, more altruistic than simply the betterment of my own allegiances and I hope these posts can now be percieved with that intent in mind.

    Not only was I not a part of any "revisionist smear campaign" instigated towards you or any individual who left at the time you did, but I was not even aware that there was any such campaign. I have, to some degree, learned from and trained with yourself and many of the seniors who left around the same point as yourself and I was personally disappointed to see the whole of you choose to leave as I felt I could have learned much more. Again, please accept my best wishes.

    I'm not sure I know what to say to you sir, other than I am sorry for your perceived slights. In your desire to share your experiences don't you think it a bit unnecessary to challenge the experiences of others? After you challenged him, I believe Mas Andrew was simply trying to point out that the VDT organization is currently filled with lots of people who's experience differs from the that of yourself and others, many who have been there for quite a few years. Is it a perfect fit for everyobody? Certainly not, but I am not aware of anything that is. Pick any system or organization you want and I will submit that this simple caveat applies: "Your mileage may vary"

    I am passingly familiar with the teachings of Ramana and 'self-enquiry' but in my, admittedly limited, underastanding of them, I fail to see how your earlier posts in this thread have served anything resembling those tenets.

    As I said before, I recognize that we all have a strong desire to state our feelings and have our opinions displayed for all to appreciate, and I'm not opposed to healthy debate, but I also feel that anyone should be given the freedom to personally promote his system or organization here without feeling like he is going to be thrown to the wolves. Ideally it shouldn't take some forced sense of decorum to allow someone to say that "Mande Muda is the perfect system for me" or "I've learned a lot in my studies of Cimande Pusaka" without feeling he is going to have to back up everything he says with notarized testimony. I realize that a lot of people disagree with my instructor, but I don't feel its right that a man should get blind-sided, or accused of blind, zealous proselytizing just because his experience has been more positive than others. Mr. Astle's opinion is not wrong just because its different than yours folks, nor is it any less valid because he's been around a few less years than you.
  8. Monyet Nakal

    Monyet Nakal Valued Member

    I have no doubt that you have "been on the receiving end of some mean-spirited and untruthful comments from that part of town" but they didn't come from my neighborhood and certainly not from my address. I feel that I have been cordial and open about my intentions here, maybe even to the point of possible rammifications in my own life, and I don't appreciate you publically writing my intents off or questioning my motives simply on the basis of guilt by association. You don't know me or my reasons for getting involved in or continuing to study this art so I will thank you not to imply that you have knowledge of my aims other than what I have been honest about. I'm not going to be so hubristic as to immediately infer that your analog about high roads and shortcuts is directed specifically at me, but I feel I should point out that I am not the one who felt compelled to post here because I had gore to grind off of my axe.

    As I have previously stated I respect you and enjoy reading your posts whatever they pertain to but don't second guess my motives. I have given you no cause to here and you don't know me from elsewhere. You can consider them to be "pie in the sky" naivete and smugly wait for my other shoe to drop or doubt them entirely, but I would rather risk that disappointment and hope for an enviornment where I can potentially study my art in an open arena with many perspectives than use my talent and experience to perpetuate old schisms.

    For what its worth I agree with the majority of the rest of the observations and advice you've given Mr. Knight, its very astute and well stated. If only you can deliver it without feeling the need to belittle me based soley on your keen insight to me from a single post and basic knowledge of my affiliations I would appreciate it more.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  9. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    First of all, let me thank you for all of your effort to register on this forum with an anonymous profile, to offer one post aimed at me. Makes me feel special.

    I was never part of any such rumor, not pivotal, not at all. When you're in the room when your teacher starts spouting such things, it's usually best to keep quiet. Eventually I voted with my feet. The people I know and respect and care about what they think, are very clued in to the timing of my leaving. I had lots of things offered to me, and I rejected those things very early on, as anyone close to the situation(s) - which obviously doesn't include you - has known for a long time.

    There are three specific times that I said things which were critical of others on Guru Victor's private forum. I remember what they were (especially because they ****ed off some people), and I still stand behind those criticisms. Whoops, make that 4 things - I've been highly critical of Simonet's little maneuver.... him, I'll mention by name. None of those was aimed at Guru Plinck or his students.

    Apparently Guru Bob, Jerry, Chris, Mike C., Ron, John, Jon, Chas, Steve G., Dr. Andre, my students, and yes even Guru Plinck, don't feel that I have any credibility problems on this front. And I'm not out promoting the 4 people I criticized in the past, nor do I care to mention them here, 'cept ol' Joe.

    As for my motives and hitching of wagons and so forth, you've obviously had that one wrong from the get-go, and are obviously someone who is not in the know. Sorry you're sore, and thanks again for esteeming me with your very first post.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  10. realitychecker

    realitychecker New Member


    I mean Ed Martin, you are truly a disciple of Victor. The orginization's lies do run deep! You have gone in and made quite a name for yourself. There are those of us who also "keep good records". I believe that you sent this peaceful email to a good friend from Illinois who got sick of all your school's B.S. The profanity has been sensored for the comfort of the other patrons:

    Very eloquent style of writting there monyet. I used be in touch with the guy that you sent that to. That letter made it's way across the internet, and the world. I wonder if anyone will send it to Dave Cater, and IKF? J.R. is a very honorable guy who if asked, would even still give you the shirt off of his back if you asked for it.

    The best advice anyone could give Marcusknight would be to go to a direct- accomplished Guru of Paul de Thouars. I don't know if you will find one in Texas, but that's your best bet. They will Never be involved in any internet-bickering like this. I'm feel sickened that I too have even become privy!

    Out of curiosity "Monyet",when will your Victor admit to his ongoing deceptions about being a US Marine? He did say that quite often, didn't he? Did he produce proof yet? How can folks like yourself, and this Andrew guy who started this whole post (that call themselves "seniors"), go on when your leader keeps shoveling his 'sheep' lies? Does that make you perpetuators of these untruths? It does if you are aware of it. And all of the current seniors help shovel it too, to all of the new guys like MarcusKnight that don't know any better. Shame on you! Why doesn't that guy in the 'Tsunami' books, Mjr. Bob Custer (ret.) USMC, shank him for lying? I would hope that any self-respecting former-Marine would put a stop to that!

    Andrew was right in saying Vic was a genious, as far as Vic's creation of another lineage of curriculum. If it true that this Mas Roen, and Marjokey did not exist, the man did a good job in innovating his 'pentjak'. By his lying about it, has scarred his name, and all of thise ever attached to it. The U.S. silat community would be better off if it's teachers/leaders went back into thier own homes (garages,basements)where there isn't any overhead, and stopped trying to charge outragous sums of $$$ to learn mystical secrets. My silat history is that of a layman's, but did Silat Gurus/Players in Indonesian villages used to charge it's members to learn the vital ways of defense nessacary to survive?

    Sleepless in N.Y.

    p.s. Has anyone seen the Serak(TM) movie starring Guru Dan as Mas Roen? Has it come out yet??
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2006
  11. Orang Bayangan

    Orang Bayangan New Member

    Everyone has to start somewhere, why not with you? I suppose you have to take what you can get. I am happy to have helped to boost your self esteem.

    You can equivocate all you like, but there are enough people who know what went on that it doesn't really matter.

    Like I said before, if Victor hadn't thrown you out you would still be attacking his "enemies" for him. Your experiences do not seem to have changed you for the better (or at all perhaps).

    You might want to get some real feedback from some of the people who you named. You could benefit from seeing yourself from the perspective of other people. (or perhaps it never occurred to you that people might have opinions of you that differ from what you think they are)
  12. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    C'mon people. Do you not have the dignity to rise above this ongoing conflict?

    For if you have grudges to bear, is this really the place to do it?

    Can't you just PM each other with insults and spare the rest of us this embarassment?

    Don't bring those of us who are not involved in these political issues down to your level. That is what it does! It taints the rest of us who study under the very large umbrella of 'Silat'.

    It is beginning to get as tiresome as it is embarassing :eek:
  13. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    I suspect, that - like you - whoever they are, they have their minds made up at this very late date. I came on this thread to try and help they guy who started it, to see that some of the venomous posts he was receiving for his efforts, were a legitimate attempt to help him protect his reputation over the long haul. I also stated that I was not going to comment on the specifics of what he has been taught or the agenda-laden terminology associated with it. The reason is that he had suggested I was a guy who could support his point of view, so I wanted to clarify that I was not - and why. A couple of folks paid me a compliment for which I thanked them. I've tried to send a negative thread in a positive direction. I guess I'm way out of line, huh?

    This is the internet, so you can lob all the typewriter bombs you care to from anonymity. I'm not going to respond to you any more, because your mind is made up, and there's no constructive future for anyone reading this in my maintaining a back and forth with you. I wonder why, with all the vitriol on this thread (none of which has come from me), you're so motivated to pick on me, but it's only idle curiosity. I'm sure you'll pipe up here and tell us all why, but I don't care. Rave on. No more responses from me.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  14. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    I agree, I'm out.
  15. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    You have a point, and I concede it. Students cannot always be held responsible for what a teacher says, any more than a teacher is always responsible for his students's words or deeds. There are, however, some fairly narrow and blurred lines here. If you are standing watch outside the bank while a couple of your buddies rob the place, you are as guilty as they are if they decide to shoot somebody, even if you weren't carrying a gun.

    As I recall my entry into this discussion, it came when Guru Andrew posted a note about the IKF article, and I pointed out a simple error of fact in it. I thought I was fairly restrained, because there were other howlers I let slide.

    No, I wasn't there when the base-angle-leverage term came into being, but I can trace it back for as long as I have been there, and I have seniors who will happily testify to earlier useage. Guru Plinck came up with it. Not Pak Vic, not Mas Djut, not Bapak Sera. Period.

    People borrow techniques and terms all the time. No harm in that. But it's like borrowing a phrase to use in a book or article that you knowingly lifted from another writer. If you use the quote, you attribute it. If you claim it as your own, or give it to somebody else without doing that, it's called plagiarism.

    I realize that you don't care who came up with the term in question. And if Pak Vic had said the terminology had come from Guru Plinck, that would have been fine. But to intentionally borrow and not say so strikes me as not wanting to give credit where it is due, and I have to ask myself, Why is that? Coupled with the "new lineage" that suddenly leaves Guru Plinck back in primary school, vis a vis his silat, along with a generally expressed disdain in our direction from a whole bunch of Pak Vic's gurus, you might understand that I see an intentional pattern.

    You say you are not part of that, and I realize that might consist of keeping your mouth shut and your eyes averted when it comes up. Come up it has, though, and I've had eye- and earwitness testimony from guys who were there. If you weren't actively involved, then I apologize for tarring you with that brush. In the past, I have had some of Vic's seniors (former ones) email or call me to apologize for his comments, and I could understand their dilemma -- they respected Stevan, they don't agree with what Pak Vic said, but he is (was) their teacher, and what could they do about it?

    An unpleasant spot, between the rock and the hard place.

    And yet, I haven't gotten any private notes from you regarding this. Could it be that you would rather hash it out in public? If I am to be faulted for attacking Guru Andrew in open view instead of privately contacting him, then how is what you've done any different?

    Of course, you are sometimes known by the company you keep. And sometimes, if you lie down with dogs, you ought not to be surprised if you wake up with fleas.

    As you pointed out in your unconcern for who came up with the base-angle-leverage term, let me apply that to your motives. If you are in a gang that waylays me on the street, your motives for doing so don't concern me. By being there, you offer tacit approve to what they are doing, whether you throw a punch or not. I haven't seen any attempt to disassociate yourself from the pack.

    All I have to go on is what you post here, that is true. But since you invited yourself to the party, and made your affiliations part of your platform, then perhaps I ought not to be blamed for thinking you are a member of the camp that belittles mine. If no such word has ever passed your lips, then again, my apology.

    It it walks and quacks like a duck and flies with the flock, it might not be a duck, but that's the way the smart money bets.
  16. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    I saw that letter as well, and I also know that person it was sent to, realitychecker, and you're correct: He IS an honorable guy, and a very dedicated practitioner. I personally met him at ROF 2003. He certianly deserved better than he got. I understand he has found a teacher worthy of the name now, and is happy where he is.

    You know what, Gajah? You're right. This is a damn sight tiresome. I am long away from this organization & it still finds me from time to time. But what I see is, although blunt or harsh, isn't an insult war.

    It's a general call for accountability.

    It has long been my belief that Victor and the brothers D should be held accountable for their actions. They burn and pillage through the silat community without a second thought to the hatred and malevolence they leave in their wake. The majority of the posts here are between Victor's former students and his newer crop. Victor readily encourages this, and all the while as people who have given heart, mind and soul (checkbooks?) to Victor draw the line & demand honesty, he allows others to fight for him as he stands in the background, Promethean, beating his chest over how he has been slandered.

    We as a community have a responsibility to police ourselves. There was a time when you couldn't get away with this kind of irresponsiblity with students. The bad judgement shown by the DeThouars wouldn't have gone so long unchecked if the community would have stood up & held them accountable for their words and actions. Say all you want about how great their skill is, it doesn't stand as an excuse for ANY of the brothers. This small gathering isn't even a quarter of the people who cannot be in the same room with each other due to Victor's mishandling of his system. Now you are all fighting amongst yourselves because of things you did or said while training with Victor (or Paul, or Willem). Some of you are having to explain things you said on other forums, words that really didn't come from your own mouths if you think about it. You may want to reconsider your "blameless" position, we are each responsible for our own actions, no matter whose influence we might have been under.

    If you have caused conflict like this, ADMIT IT. Dagon knows I did, and I was humble about it when I admitted to such because I knew I was guilty of it. The man I screamed about on Victor's forum is now one of my closest friends, and I have discovered his knowledge of Silat to be unquestionable. WTF?? I was blatantly told that this man had "stolen" all of his Silat, how did he know these secretive things about Cimande? He knew things not only about Pa Herman but Bambang as well...and knew them personally. What would I have missed out on if I continued to follow Victor's doctrine after I left his system?

    I don't expect those who hear this to suddenly "wake up" and smell the kopi tarik. If you're in a car doing 70 mph, why jump out of it for the unknown just because a stranger said so? But I do hope that the words others post here lead you to examine your actions & the motives behind them. I hope it encourages you to THINK before you ACT.

    And just maybe, when the inevitable occurs, (and it WILL occur, we have yet to see an example where it didn't) I hope it lets you see that there is more than one side of the story, and that well-worn path you are on has been tread by countless others. You're not alone out here.

    Alea Jacta Est
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2006
  17. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    Yikes. That was very clear. And it points to a positive future. I know the person that that letter was sent to, and I agree - very honorable person indeed. I singled him out at ROF 2004 (my last one), in appreciation for his character and dedication. I'm very happy for him and for where he ended up. He felt horrible about things he was influenced into saying about me (and others) after we left, and he went out of his way to contact me to tell me so before he himself made his exit. We remain friends and brothers in the art.

    In the spirit of Bobbe's post, I will admit here that I stood outside Steve's metaphorical bank while the robbery was going on and I regret not having left sooner. I did consult my direct senior, (upon his being "thrown out") which I have always done, and he encouraged me to stay as long as I could stand it. And when Chris called me to tell me he was leaving, I told him I'd go the same day. He was the last guy in my "generation" of long hours and years of training and socializing, that I had felt obligated to support.

    That said, with the benefit of some hindsight, I realize that by simply occupying a space that I was put in, my personal integrity was misused to lend credibility (internally, if nowhere else) to some destructive behavior, and I'm responsible for allowing that to happen. A rock and a hard place indeed - made doubly difficult because I had a public school and students to think about when weighing all this stuff - but I'll cop to it.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  18. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    The Point, Sir

    There is an old saying, sir: Where there is smoke, there is fire.

    That there is this much contention about our branch of silat is something of which a prospective -- or current -- student should find useful to be aware. If, as I said on another forum, I saw you about to pick up a coral snake that you thought was a harmless king snake, I'd feel the need to let you know that. If you still wanted to do so, that would be your business, but I would have done what I thought was right.

    If there were a bunch of folks out snake-hunting, it would be easier to convey the danger to them all at once than by trying to speak to each one directly.

    You find all this tiresome and embarrassing, so, why read it? Nobody is twisting your arm and making you, nor did they insist that you join the discussion, did they? You can vote with your feet.

    People more directly concerned with it obviously feel the need to speak to it. The article that started the discussion was about silat Serak, so nobody was talking of your branch of the art and whatever issues that might exist with it. Those who need to be embarrassed here probably won't be, but since you don't really know who that is, wouldn't it be better for you to stay out of it, if it bothers you? Instead of, you know, taking us to task for talking about things of which you have no direct knowledge, telling us we have no dignity, that we are tainting you, are tiresome, and pointing out the low level at which we operate?

    Your insults make you better than us how ... ?
  19. Orang Bayangan

    Orang Bayangan New Member

    So far it seems to me that the "conflict" has been pretty dignified. Things said have been matters of substance rather than personality.

    It seems to me to be a matter of setting the record straight rather than having grudges. As Mr. Perry pointed out "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

    For years some members of the DeThoures family and their students have made the Silat world a laughing stock with their incessant feuding and back stabbing.

    No one has been more public in this than Victor, and unlike the rest of the family he is the one that has gone to great lengths to attack people who are not members of his circle, and to encourage hs students to do the same.

    He is also the one who changes his teachers and linage at will (with no regard for the claims he made last week) who claims to have been a Viet Nam veteran, but no one can find any record of his even being in the military, who claims to have a PhD. though there is no record that anyone can find of this, who denigrates all other teachers of his art, even the ones he trained. and on and on and on ad nauseam. (The term "Compulsive Lying as evidence of Antisocial Personality Disorder" comes to mind)

    If it were about insulting people sure, but then that is not what it is really about.

    I have to wonder why you are subjecting yourself to this thread then.

    People have a right to know both sides of the issue, what better place to discuss such things than here?

    It really becomes interesting in that we have some of the "usual suspects" here who were Victor's "hit men" when they were in his good graces, as well as the current group of cannon fodder that Vic uses to stay one step away from the actual debate.

    And we have one of the ring leaders of the group now claiming to be only "standing outside the bank". Now admittedly "Master Foot" was very careful to present a pleasant and reasonable public face, but there are a number of people here who were privy to the more private conversations.

    But we can also infer private behavior from one's public actions.

    "Master Foot" was the individual who started one of the largest and most hateful of the battles between Willian Sanders PCP and the members of VDT.

    Perhaps he has selective amnesia when it comes to this event being as he was not "outside the bank".

    It should be noted that "Foot" has never met Mr. Sanders or his teachers, yet felt free to denigrate them on a public forum. That is what we are dealing with here, a lot of hearsay from Victor and his students (especially his students) trumpeted as truth. But it's not. Foot has never met Mr Sanders or any of his senior students, has never got on the mat with them, has never met any of Mr Sanders teachers, yet he feels qualified to insult them because it gained him points with Victor. It should also be noted that Mr Sanders had removed any reference to Victor from all the websites he had control over at least a year before and had been practicing a live and let live philosophy until "Foot" could not deal with the peacefulness any more and just had to start something. In other words it was an unprovoked attack for no other reason than to create discord and please Victor

    This is habitual behavior for "Master Foot", and while he would like everyone to think he is a great and reasonable guy, there are enough people who have seen the truth to know better.

    (By the way Foot, if you had enough Bahasa to read my name you would know who I am, just as I knew you from yours).
  20. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    MAP is an English speaking forum, thanks

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2006

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