Inosanto/LaCoste angles

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by querist, Feb 2, 2016.

  1. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    A couple of questions on Inosanto/LaCoste angles:

    Can anyone tell me the difference between angles 13 & 14 vs angles 21 & 22? They all look like Abonika (fan) motions to me, and from what I can see the only difference is that 13 / 14 have a supporting hand.

    There seems, to the inexperienced eye (read: this writer), that some of the angles are nearly the same as other angles, such as the 13/14 21/22 pairs, but I know that there have to be differences or there would not be separate angles.

    And, I've heard that there are a large number of angles in Guro Inosanto's system. I've only ever seen the first 24. Does anyone have a chart/list of the angles, especially one that goes past 24?

    I like Kali because its principles mesh nicely with Wing Chun. My Wing Chun Sifu trained with Guro Dan in Kali and is teaching me Kali as well as Wing Chun, and he's a really great guy, but I just feel stupid sometimes asking questions like this so I'm coming here instead.


    p.s. We need a question-mark icon to add for messages.
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    There are 12 main angles in ILS, but even some of those are essentially variations on a theme


    There are many additional angles added with variations in energy and configuration of grip, but again these are - to me - pretty pointless to have separate names for

    I teach the basic 12, but also adopted the Battlefield Kali 9 (which is much more practical IMO). Every system has it's own nuances and numbering variations - try not to let these blind you to what you are actually learning combatively because thety are just convenient labels for class teaching
  3. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    Thanks, Hannibal. I know different systems have their own numbering / naming systems, and I'm curious as to why certain angles exist in some systems and not in others, etc.

    For me, the names and numbers facilitate communication and record keeping. When I learn a new sumbrada drill, for example, it is nice to be able to write down what I'm doing. For example, the classic sumbrada Heaven 6 drill for me becomes R1 L2 R2 L1 R2 L2.

  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Depending on my mood my classes have terms like "high forehand low backhand high forehand" and the angles be damned!

    The reason they exist is - in theory - to provide an easy reference; the angles are supplemented by the striking method (abanico, baccalao, sunkete etc..) and the supplemental energy (loptik, watik etc).
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I only know the 12. But I mean in an actual fight, I think you'd be hard pressed to use more than the first two.
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Actually you use most of them in MMA

    Hook, cross, backfist, jab, bodyshot, overhand, uppercut, thigh kick....all angles of attack
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Shh, don't tell them about the backhand diagonals.... ;)

    People think DBMA is 'a simplified system', well... it kind of is to begin with.

    Is it a forehand or a backhand?
    Is it a diagonal or a horizontal?
    Sometimes it's a jab or a thrust.
    That covers about 90% of problems ;) See me next year.
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I use the angles in striking, but I was talking about the actual techniques with a stick. I wouldn't really use more than the first two. Certainly I use all the angles, but it would be a downright lie to say I learned to kick and punch those angles from a stick art.
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's weird...some FMA's have mainly just numbered angles, others seem to have a mixture of angles and techniques while others have angles, techniques and targets.
    For example in my modern Arnis book there are strikes where the angle is the same (45 degree downward forehand for example) but target varies (one to the knee and one to the head IIRC) so they get assigned different numbers in the sequence.
    Whereas when I did Rapid Arnis the downward 45 was angle no. 1 in the sequence and that was that. You could hit the head, arm, knee, etc on that angle but the angle stayed roughly the same so it was still a number 1 strike.
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The angles are simply a way to learn and if you have them from elsewhere then the assertion "I won't use more than two" is patently false; you just have different names for them

    As for "in a stick fight" do you mean you would only use angles 1 and 2? In what energy? with what type of attack? Because even if it were true, you have about 20 variations from that alone - that also doesn't take into account the fact i bet you would use at least an angle 3 and 4 at some point too if you thought back to when you have done it in class.

    How many angles do you see in these exchanges? It is a LOT more than 2

  11. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    That's what we have in BIFF, 5 angles regardless of where you strike...a stab is a '5' whether you stab him in the eye or the crackers. There's other strikes, and variations of the strikes, that come up in drills as you progress through the system, but they're not numbered.

    I don't even know what my two "go to" strikes are called or numbered. They're used in Pekiti a lot I think. One is like this *waves hand around in the air a bit* and the other is like this *waves hand around in the air on the other side a bit*. Get it?
  12. E-Rocker

    E-Rocker Valued Member

    One of my teachers felt that there are really only two angles, specifically forehand and backhand, but I would argue that a straight thrust is neither forehand nor backhand.
  13. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I think overly reductionist methods aren't especially useful though, as the mechanics of an upwards forehand are pretty different to those for a downwards one. In my experience there are either 6 or 8 distinct cuts, depending on if your system has straight up and straight down cuts. Inosanto further breaks it up by numbering different levels and wrist actions.
  14. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    That may explain it - the wrist actions...


  15. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    Thread necromancy at its finest...

    I finally found a list right here on MAP, but through Google and not MAP's search feature...

    Setting the WayBack machine to 2005:

    Now at least I have something from which to work and a framework in which to understand the differences in the angles. I was only looking for 1-25. I did not know there were THAT many.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  16. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    This thread has just illustrated (see what I did there?) WHY you wind up with so many different numbering systems and/or angles. People can't even agree on what constitutes an angle. Does the target matter? The wrist action? Etc.

    There's good news and bad news.

    The bad news is that it can get as complicated as we choose to make it. And not without some cause. Take wrist action for example. Is a backhand slash to the temple the same as a backhand witik to the temple? The target is the same. The overall approach path is the same. But part of the point of a kurbada witik is that it deals with an obstruction differently. GM Cacoy (RIP) once told me that he used witik to curve around the blocks people used verses more standard slashing attacks. That means that the effective defense is going to be different. Suggesting that it's a different angle (assuming that angles are supposed to be a teaching tool to simplify the attacks and corresponding blocks).

    Is that an argument for MORE angles? I'm not sure it is. I think this is one of those cases that Bruce Lee talked about (or appropriated from Zen). That one about using a canoe to cross a river, but then abandoning the canoe rather than carrying it once you reach the other side. Getting too fixated on what various angles are and what to do about them can be more complicated, after a while, than simply saying "stick comes from this side, here are my options..."

    I think the angles are more useful for cross-weapon training than for covering all the variations with a given weapon. By that, I mean that learning to contend with a forehand stick strike to the knee is a good way to learn how to contend with a low round kick to the knee. Not such a surefire way to learn how to contend with a forehand stick strike to the temple. Or a forehand kurbada witik to the kneecap. Etc.

    It's a tool. Different people will find it helpful in different ways and to different degrees. What it does is provide a common language in the classroom. The extent to which that common language informs someone's training is still very much down to the individual.

    I've learned four or five different numbering systems over the years. But the only one I retain was the first one really. That was the 12 angles I learned from the Patalinghug family (Cacoy Doce Pares). Note: It's actually a different set of angles from that GM Cacoy used himself. Which just goes to show.

    So even though I muck up the odd drill or sequence in, say, a Modern Arnis class, my basic understanding of what to do about various attacks is intact. And that's what matters, at the end of the day.
  17. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    I've learned at least three different numbering systems and these were all within the context of Guro Dan Inosanto's lineage.
  18. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Unfortunately the numbering of angles and every subsequent move put into a sequence has lead FMA into a very ossified state. The art is hit and don't get hit.

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