Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Light25, Jan 25, 2018.
Reminds me of aikido class a couple days ago. I was drilling sheonage (a shoulder lock that becomes a throw). To finish it, I could "throw" with my arm. It works, but the other guy will feel it and will struggle and if I don't do it exactly right he might avoid the throw. As an alternative, I could "throw" him by shifting my hips forward, getting my whole body into it. That's better, but he still feels it, and he will try to fight out of it. Almost always I will win but it's a physical struggle. Third choice, I could roll my own shoulder. It's a very small move. The other guy will not feel anything -- but magically he will lose all balance. Balance gone. He will collapse under his own weight, utterly unable to remain on his feet. He just falls and he doesn't even know why.
**THAT** is chi, that third way, the very subtle but efficient movement in my own body. It comes only by practice, because it has to be physically felt.
I put, and still am putting, so much work into this throw, to get the ending properly and constantly(!) in a good way.
Lots of times, I don't manage to work my shoulder right and stop Uke from being able to avoid it.
It has gotten better with time, but I still don't make it look as easy, as it looks when my teacher does it
And I certainly don't want to keep standing when *he* does that technique.
Most if his books cover a lot of self protection, "dead or alive" is probably the better all rounder to start.
It depends what they mean,but yeah,stay clear unless one knows just what the "ch'i" training entails & what it's supposed to do.
@Light25-I guess it's ok if you learn some breathing exercises,which is all what the vast majority of "ch'i gungs" are.Running's probably better!Unless you're being taught the gungs which have to do with learning to do physical things with your body I wouldn't concentrate on that stuff much.
1st plant thy fist on a nose,then worry about "esoteric" ch'i.
Just speakin' as a guy whose main thing is T'ai Chi.
Really? That explains why when my 5th TC teacher-who had been inactive for some years-put his forearm against mine for the first time said:Oh,you have much more ch'i than I." We weren't moving yet.
I've had people fall down in sparring 'cause I rolled a shoulder in response to their incoming force.Didn't consider it ch'i.Still don't.But I suppose I could.
But that goes back to the 10,000 meanings of "ch'i".
I wouldn't be too absolute in the definition.I mean we could say you allowed the opponent's ch'i (energy/energetic expression) to go on it's way (to the ground) without doing much of anything with your own ch'i at all.Of course simply "listening" (physically) is described as a TYPE of ch'i in CMAs.
And you well know I ain't know ch'i ball thrower!
After a getting into few fights, I quickly figured out how not too, mostly because it hurt. I could talk my way out of many likely fights before I had learnt enough skills in the dojo to handle myself.
It certainly helps to avoid problems with confidence, before that I found I trying to avoid fights with fear which was never as successful.
In addition to that, altercations have often been "unsatisfying" in the outcome, no one wins, everyone usually gets hurt. When you train in a good martial arts school, you feel reward and progress, it takes away from your ego to "test" yourself when presented with certain scenarios.
Well I see it's too late to right my incorrect spelling of "know" to "no" in my above post.
You must stand on the corner of typo shame.
LOL, me neither! I just don't accept the magical mystical definitions. Rolling the shoulder in sheonage moves the other guy's center of gravity without simultaneously moving any other part of him. Without warning, his weight is no longer over his feet. It's nothing more than a demonstration of levers/leverage from high school physics.
Whenever I hear someone talking about their chi, I just replace it with "proper body mechanics/technique" in my head, though I won't then get into a discussion of proper technique...
I recall once asking a student instructor when I trained JJJ why his stomp to the ground (ostensibly to an opponent's head or stomach after throwing them) was much more impactful than mine, despite him weighing maybe half what I do. His answer was "I put my chi into it" or something like that.
Translation: He is creating a stronger impact force through better technique.
What I really wanted to know is "how should I alter the mechanics of what I'm doing in order to increase the impact of my stomp", but I didn't pursue the question further. I felt that by answering "Chi", that was a signal that he was not able to properly explain. Maybe a bad assumption on my part, but there it is. (Generally I find the answer will be "your chi will improve over time with practice"... not super helpful in terms of a concrete correction/adjustment.)
(I haven't heard that term in person since I stopped training more traditional arts. Chi doesn't tend to come up in combat sports.)
sub'd to this thread
Not to sound flaky but he may be just using his mind better in the execution of technique which may be why he can't explain what he does.
I was paired up in a Silat class with a young guy who had a 1st degree in TKD. I knew his teacher and am familiar with the skill level of his students so I knew the guy was a legit 1st degree.In what he did.But this was different for him.
Anyway we were practicing a simple wraparound the head/ neck of the opponent and he just couldn't get it. His motion looked okay but he couldn't pull off the actual execution and while I wasn't resisting I'm not just gonna fall over for no reason.So I finally told him when he extended his arm across me to think of sending his energy out his arm to the other side of the room,and then cut it back ( through his upper arm) behind me as he wrapped.Nothing about tan t'ien or meridians or anything.
Kid almost took my head off!
As one of my teachers said in an interview a lot of certain types of the ch'i stuff is mainly mental.
For any mental change to have an effect on an opponent, it needs to come through physically. Sure thinking about doing things in a certain way can be helpful in getting the mechanics right.
But that is because thinking about it in a certain way caused a change in the physical execution of the technique.
I agree. It's discerning what was changed in the execution that's the hard part-cause you don't (necessarily) see the change in the motion-just the end result.
Let me try to be clearer with what I meant.
Consider these interactions:
Student: "Your head stomp hits much harder than mine? Why?"
Teacher: "I am harnessing my Chi better."
Student: "Your head stomp hits much harder than mine? Why?"
Teacher: "I am using better technique."
In #1, it feels like there isn't really a good followup. With #2, the student can ask "Ok, what should I do to improve my technique?"
With the Chi angle, what is there to ask? "How can I get better Chi/use my Chi better?" I haven't ever seen an answer to that other than "it takes time, grasshopper".
But the good Doc above just gave you an example of 2
Here is another "hit through the pad"
Thanks guys, you've all been very helpful to me and a appreciate all the information. This may be a late response but I'm still here.
I'll continue to do my research. My question right now is do any of you know a really good CLF school in NY or even Long Island? I'd love to hear some opinions on this. Thanks so much.
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