Independents

Okay, then, to give you the full story, the term "Ninjutsu" is made up of two separate concepts, "Nin", also pronounced "Shinobu", which has myriad connotations, such as patience, perserverance, and so on, and "Jutsu", which refers to "art". For the record, the strict pronunciation of that is more along the lines of "j'ts'oo", with the latter "oo" being soft. It is not, and never has been "Jitsu", as that is more "jeets'oo", and is a completely different word altogether, as well as being very distinctly different in pronunciation when heard in native Japanese.

 

As I understand it

術 pronounced じゅつ "jutsu"

実 pronounced じつ "jitsu"

But my Japanese sucks.

 

No of course not because the only have an understanding of a small portion of the bigger picture. But if they can show me under pressure that the can apply and adapt to all the aspect I require they will like anyone else reach the level they train for and I would also train with them in order to gain a better understanding of their whip skills and improve my own. For it is far easier to combat a skill if you have a better understanding on how that skill works and is applied.

My point here is that I don't buy into the foreigners don't get it excuse. It does not wash with me as I have proved it to people in my own art who have said the same and I have seen other prove it in other arts.

What I am saying and I'm not sure you will GET IT is that if you train hard enough and dedicate your self to any art you will GET IT unless your as thick as two short planks and even then you'll get part of the way there.

There is nothing mystical about it and it is a very simple thing to grasp. Fighting is fighting it is just that some arts specialise in certain aspects of fighting.

What I am seeing here is that some people seem to have a problem with what you call Xkans? Just because someone has left and adapted things they felt they personally needed adapting and have found it has worked for them does not mean they didn't get it it just means they found a way that personally worked better for them.

Best regards

Pat

 

Thanks Dean, didn't have time to look for them...

For the record, the top one is "Jutsu", the lower one is "Jitsu", meaning "Truth" (as in Kyojitsu = "False [Kyo] and Truth [Jitsu]).

 

Japanese keyboard built into my iPod

It gets a bit daft at times over some kanji but isn't bad overall.

 

Reality Please posted

Do you believe you are worth that grade.

If so why?

If not, did you refuse it?

 

So, coming back to Kobudo's original question regarding "independents" and also taking into consideration that not all of us have the financial backing required to train in Japan for prolonged periods of time.

Do we agree to disagree or do we agree to agree??

regards

R

 

I would have to agree with Pat regarding this matter, but I can also appreciate what others are saying with regard to training in Japan.

Now before this sounds like a contradiction in statements, I think it all boils down to why you train (for what reason), where you train and do you really want to get involved with all the historical trappings surrounding that art/system where in order to "truly" understand it some are saying that you need to be able to speak Japanese (including proficiency in medieval dialect of any given period) and be prepared to spend a considerable amount of time deciphering what has been written in authentic documents regarding this subject and cross reference this with Soke Hatsumi, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei and the Japanese Shihan not to mention the various Japanese historians who's expertise in the subject would also be required.??

Speaking purely for my self here. NO!!

Is it viable, Does it work, can I adapt it! that's all I was ever interested in and it works for me in my system.


regards

R

 

Not really what I was getting at, honestly. My point was more that if someone displayed skill, even if they could "beat" you and your senior students using skills and methods that are no part of your system, would you rank them in your art? You may want to learn from them, and maybe even integrate it in some way into your eclectic system, but that doesn't mean that the other guy has any skill or knowledge in Rapid Arnis.. therefore he could not be said to have "got it".

And frankly, the idea of just integrating whatever into your art because you feel it's another "effective" approach is once more completely beside the point here. That is an expression of your values, that's all.

Oh, I get that, and agree. I don't think that there are any racial barriers that magically stop someone of a different genetic make-up from gaining skill, knowledge, and understanding in any area of human achievement or development.... however, the claim is more that in order to achieve that skill, knowledge, and understanding you need to learn from those who already have achieved it. And, according to RP and other members of the Bujinkan, the only people who have achieved any real development in that way are those in Japan, and only a small number at that.

Once again, agreed. But one thing you may need to understand about certain Japanese martial traditions is that the list of authorised persons who are seen fit to pass on such insight and so on can be incredibly small. Some have a teaching staff of one, for instance. No matter how dedicated you are, if you aren't in that circle of one teacher (in that system), then you will never "get" the system, because there is no-one qualified to guide you through it. I feel that's more the concept that RP is getting at here, and this is why he's saying that your lack of understanding of this particular art is coming to the fore.

Nope, beside the point again. We are talking about gaining skill in a specific martial art, not generic fighting, okay? And saying that "fighting is fighting" misses the entire discussion entirely, then saying that "some arts specialise in certain aspects of fighting" shows a lot of misunderstanding of the actual topic, and martial arts themselves, particularly where the traditional systems are concerned.

You may have missed this earlier, but what is your background in "Niten Ryu" that you mentioned earlier?

Some terminology definitions here. X-Kan refers to the three primary Takamatsuden (traditions passed from Takamatsu Sensei) organisations; the BujinKAN, the GenbuKAN, and the JinenKAN. It's basically "blank-KAN". And there is no problem if some one leaves to alter what they are doing to better suit their personal values and needs, the issue is when the terminology used is specific to the traditional methods, when they are eschewed. As I said, you may have learnt boxing in England, but if you then add knives, kicks, and throws and chokes, is it still boxing, or is it now something entirely different, with a boxing base?

When it comes to someone who has "modernised" such things to suit their prefered needs and environment, and whether or not that is an indication of them "getting it", that is really on a case-by-case basis... but I will say that the majority that I have seen do support RP's take on things. In other words, there is little actual adaptation, certainly not what would be required based on their claims, and it really looks like substandard Budo Taijutsu for the most part. I will give the addendum, though, that I haven't seen Sandstorm and how he presents the material, so that is not a condemnation of his methods, although the amount of mistakes in some of the terminology he uses may indicate something. Although, that may just be the amount of time since he stopped being involved in the arts.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a member (and an instructor) in one of these "split-off" organisations. But we keep the traditional methods the same, and have a different reference to our modern component.

 

With respect Chris, i would be the first to admit that I don't teach ANYTHING like BJK

Now I know I am going to get totally slaughtered here, but take a look at BUSSEY COMBATIVES,(Youtube) Not his students But Robert himself and you will get some idea of what I do. I know Robert well! Apologies, I haven't figured out how to insert a video link yet.

regards

R

 

Yeah, I know Bob's stuff pretty well too, he's a good friend of my Chief Instructor, going way back to the early days in Japan there.... and I wouldn't class anything that Bob presents as being anything other than a passing reference to the Bujinkan material he learnt way back when (and I don't think he would either, frankly!). There's far too much of his other training and his personal expression and values/beliefs in there for that, some I like, other aspects I'm far more, uh, iffy about. None of that means anything other than it not being Ninjutsu, though, really.

Oh, and video links are nice and simple here, just put in the URL line of the you-tube clip, and it should come up in your post.

 

Chris,Who do you think you are telling me what I can and can not differentiate between?
Ever think it might be you who see's Martial Arts as something it was never originally intended to be?
No?Because you have it stop on I suppose?

 

It goes without saying that you need a background in research and the Japanese language if you are interested in the history of ninjutsu. Beyond that though, to get the fighting art behind all of the ryu that make up the Xkans, you need to study consistently with a master of the art. No yearly trips to the Bujinkan to supplement your time training in your home country, no home study course, no internet kuden buying.

Why? Because they are traditional Japanese arts and that is the way they are passed on. Also, drum roll please, that is where the knowledge is. It would be an entirely different story if there were shihan living outside of Japan for long periods, but this isn't the case(although I do believe Manaka sensei did live in the US at some point).

 

these are the original questions

What are the basic principles of your training?
What is your background? Grade? Previous org?
Why did you decide to go it alone?

So lets not make it about the same old same old about what "ninjutsu" is ,or why some of us don't think you are learning to "fight".

 

Sure, but first....

Who do I think I am? Someone on a computer who has read your posts over the last year or more, seen your videos, and understands enough to be able to recognise patterns when you present them. Call me an interested observer.

As to whether I might have it wrong, possible, but honestly, I doubt it. Mainly because I started, as pretty much everyone else does, with the same ideas about martial arts; that they teach fighting primarily, that what worked "then" will work "now" cause people's bodies hadn't changed that much, that combative efficiency and practicality were the only consideration in forming all martial arts etc. I believed in the "what worked then works now" because I didn't know enough about the influence and differences that cultural aspects have on combative movement, and indeed, all human behaviour and interaction. I believed that, as combative techniques were the medium of the teachings, that they would only be included if they were the best, most practical, and most powerful techniques available, because I didn't have enough understanding of the way lessons are passed down. I believed that the methods in the lessons were the actual combative means used, because I didn't have enough insight into the simple logic of what would be commonly encountered and usable (unarmed combat on a battlefield, for instance, or the sword as a primary weapon in similar environments).

Your take on the entire concept of martial arts that comes through in all of your posts is that you don't care where it comes from, provided it works for you, which is perfectly valid. However, my point is that applying that value (everything must be combatively applicable here and now) to old traditions that were formed with no idea of the types of violence encountered today is incredibly naieve, and shows a great lack of understanding in that area.

But, please, if you're going to argue with me, have an argument to come back with. This is only slightly better than "In the evenings I'm a vigilante, teaming up with Batman" from a page or two ago.

 

Smug? No, just observant, George. Now, if I was to critique your movement, then we may have an issue (ego wise). I suggest we let this part go, and follow your suggestion to get back to the original topic (the make-up, reasons, and so on of independant organisations). Feel free to describe your own.

 

Reasons like this?

"Martial Arts (TMA)is almost becoming an intellectual pursuit rather than a fighting method.
The hierarchy are generally middle class "Beta" males .The cost alone of trips to Japan in order to reach 15th Dan(still makes me smile)is prohibitive for most.Combine this with the fact that most of them,well lets say don't have much fighting spirit,and if your goal is more "real self defence" (for want of a better description).Then you are left with little alternative.Even if you believe in the general tiajutsu movement,it does not mean you have to stick with a "kan"to further the skills you see as relevant .Rather than those seen as relevant to an aged Japanese man and his disciples."

Do you recognise anyone?

 

Not really sure what you're getting at there, unless you're saying that the perception you have of traditional martial arts as you put forth is why you formed your own organisation, in which case, cool, thanks for answering. I might say that your take on things is rather inaccurate in a number of ways in my experience, although I will also say that yes, I do recognise the grouping that you are refering to. It's just that your description there is far from the reality of traditional arts as I've experienced them (oh, and your initial sentence is also basically flawed... they have always been just as much intellectual pursuits as physical, when you really get down to it).

 

Actually, this is an interesting point that keeps coming up. The perceived need to modernize something. However, the body hasn't changed much in the few thousand years. Okay, we are getting bigger, etc but no extra arms, no wings growing out our backs or anything that would require the techniques to be modernized. Before anybody gets in a tissy, let me explain.

Look at tehodoki, basic methods of getting out of grabs. You see them in many martial arts and they are kind of universal, even see them in gun retention training. So if a guy grabs my wrist, why do I have to moderize the technique to fit a 21st century wrist grabber? His hand is either forward or back, same side or opposite, or both hands grabbing at once. It is either a crushing grab or he is trying to move me in some way, ie push or pull and maybe hit or trip with the grab.

Now here is why it doesn't need to be moderized.

Level 1: You learn how to do the basic technique, you may be a bit stiff and move disjointedly but the point is making sure you escape the grab and maybe counterattack.

Level 2: You learn how to better utilize your body mechanics and timing, nagare, and less force to accomplish the technique. Correct movement and footwork are more emphasized, as is kuzushi. There is still some fighting of the grab but the technique is starting to become internalized.

Level 3: You try to do the technique without thinking about it as much as possible, making sure not to move from the place grabbed or telegraph your intention. The technique is starting to work with little effort and you need less power to make it work. You can make it work most of the times with an uke but sometimes can't. This is the stage where you learn to tweak the technique to match the opponent and work with less and less compliancy on behalf of the uke. You might try the technique in sparring/randori, or outside the dojo.

The master's level(from the uke's perspective): As soon as you grab his wrist, no matter how much force you use or whether or not he is expecting it, you are the one who is affected by your own strength that is returned to you. You are off balance, have few options to counter his technique, and he has traps waiting there for you if you do try to. If someone wraps you up like a pretzel and says try to punch or kick, it probably isn't a good idea. At this level, when you have internalized the technique, principles behind it, and proper body mechanics, it doesn't matter how he grabs or what "modern" way he uses because the result is the same. Even if it doesn't even necessarily look like the original technique you learned at the first level, the response is effecient, effective, and usually painful.

If you think about it, any technique that requires, one, two, three for it to work isn't going to work against someone who is even slightly skilled. By level three, you should be closer to ooooooooone, although sometimes it is still one, two. By the time you have mastered it, there is no count.