Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    OT but :)

    Niten Ryu??

    Mr O'Malley where did you train in this and what is it exactly?
  2. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Thanks Chris,

    Some good points there.

    Tanemura sensei does the same, within Genbukan/KJJR, we learn traditional patterns, but sensei also has Goshinjutsu, which is based on the traditional patterns but incorporating his experience from the police force and real life.

    I think that's a good way to do it, call the traditional stuff by what it is, call what you've added by what it is.
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Was wondering the same thing, Dean....
  4. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    I can see the point you are making and accept what you are saying to a degree.
    However, I would like your opinion on this please.

    How long (approximately) do you personally think it would take to achieve menkyo Kaiden??
    just a guesstamate will do.

    If we take a look at all martial arts from around the world, we can clearly see that there are many, many different styles and also styles within styles.
    Eg, Jujutsu: Ten Jin Shin Yo Ryu, Shin Shin Ryu, Hontai Ryouk Dai Yoshin Ryu, Tekagi Yoshin Ryu, Katori Shin To Ryu etc, etc

    Karate: Shotokan, Seibukan, Yosokan, Goju-Ryu, wado-Ryu, Kiyokushinkai, Ren-shin kai, Isshin-Ryu etc, etc

    Kung-Fu:Pakwa, Hop gar, Wing-Chun, Laugar, Five animal system, Chin-Na (this system has all the locking techniques of all BJK, GBK, and JEK) etc,etc

    Kali: Balentawok, Lapunte, Ilistrisimo, Pakita-tursha, Sinawali etc,etc

    If people didn't branch out and develop their own system, then all the various styles would not exist and therfore the art would cease to develop. it would remain in its original state and we call this Koryu.

    Let us take a quick look at my good friend Pat O'Mally, and just for the record I am NOT saying this becasuse he is a friend of mine but using his martial arts journey to explain a few points.

    Pat started training at Bob Breens academy in Hoxton approximately 12 months before I did. When I joined, I was paired with pat and over the years have trained together on various occaisions. During that time Kali, Escrima or arnis was a closeted stick art predomanently practiced by the Philopinens people. Thats where it was born.
    I was never into Kali (I was cross training with the Booj) but Pat was. I watched him take knocks from higher ranked people in the club, recieve real pastings and continue to come back and accept defeat and learn more to eventually win. No one and I mean NO ONE trained harded than he did. In only six years he became the world champion and absolutely thrashed the Doce-Pares (The best Kali school in the PI) at there own game.
    Why? because he adapted, survived and triumphed over all at that time. I am privilidged and proud to know him and even more so to call him my friend as we have stood side by side and dealt with aggression when it counts. Not because we are super human, but because we train for reality and to us, thats what it's all about. The point I am making here, is that if you are saying that nothing should develop in a different way then I will have to disagree.


  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Everyone's personal journey in the martial arts is different, one's expression of fighting, one's particular strong points and weaknesses. The question becomes, what do you/can you pass on and what is it? One important question is how do you stay honest to yourself and your own personal growth, your students(if you have any), and the arts that nurtured you?

    Another question is what is the goal of martial arts? Is starting more styles and systems the ultimate goal? Does one have to start a new style or system to be true to his personal journey and experience or to ensure that the art continues to develop? Is that the goal anyway?
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  6. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member


    To be fair, I think that we are misunderstanding each other here and to be honest we need to be in agreement regarding this subject.

    My reason (as mentioned earlier and on many other threads) for training in the martial arts/combat arts if you like is one of Personal Protection for use in reality based situations where my life or the lives of my family depend upon it.

    Are you, Chris Parker, Kobudo and others saying that Ninjutsu is Koryu?

    This is not meant to sound like an attack, but a simple question to all please.


  7. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    From what's been said, and some debates I've had, I think the issue isn't related to changing things because you adapt and they suit you better, or that things aren't necessarily effective.


    I think the main issue you come up against on here is the purist view that only traditional training realted to the historcal Ninja can be called Ninjutsu.

    Which to some extent I agree with.

    But, I can also see why after 18 years training in something you would want to represent that in what you are now teaching.

    I think that's fine, as long as you're honest in what you are teaching, which you seem to be.

    Let's be honest, no one is going to mistake Modern Combat Ninjutsu System for any koryu art, or believe it to have any affiliation to one of the Kans, so I don't see that it does any harm to traditional Ninjutsu in any way, and I also think that name renders you innocent of any misleading.

    One of the problems you have though, is that there are many people who use the Ninja name, and claim it to be authentic, and the only path, etc, so sometimes it's assumed you're one of them if you're not part within the Kans.

    The other problem you have, and particularly relevant to you, is if you claim to 'improve' a system. As I agree that you can't do this without knowing the entire system.

    What I think you can do however is adapt what you know from a system to fit your own needs, which is what I think you have really done from what you have said. I think the phrase 'improve' is where people like Reality Please get their feathers ruffled, as they are very dedicated to the systems in which they are training.

    Bruce Lee is a good example of this as you've trained in JKD, he didn't master the entire art of Wing Chun, but he trained enough to have a good understanding of it. When he then began teaching Jun Fan Wing Chun he was calling what he was teaching Wing Chun still, as that was the core of what was being taught, but he recognised that what he was teaching was no longer Wing Chun as he'd learnt it so made that small change. He didn't improve Wing Chun, he adapted what he knew for his own needs.

    You've aknowledged Ninjutsu in your name, but have also changed it to show that you're not claiming to be teaching something you're not.

    I don't have any issue with this
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  8. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    1. Survival.

    2. Survival demands adaptation.

    3. Sometimes, but it probably has more to do with personal development than the specific, targeted further development of the original art (or why would they set out on their own path in the first place).

    4. If a person feels that the system(s) they originally studied aren't a good fit for their survival, then their sense of continued survival would demand an adaptation.
  9. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Good post!! :)
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I guess I am saying if you have a good dictionairy yet fail to look up any words, don't blame the dictionairy and go looking for a new one while complaing that the old one was no good since you never bothered to check. If you have a new dictionairy, why would you say it was the old one? Even if I have an electric dictionairy, it's still the same looking up words to find out what they mean, similar words, and so on. It hasn't modernized my studying any save make it quicker and is not necessarily anything special. I mean what happens if the batteries die?...

    If you don't know the depth of an art, how can you say what "is" or "isn't?" If you haven't seen a teacher apply the knowledge they have gained from the art in different situations, how do you know if they can or can't do so? If some have reached such a stage in the art, then it is duplicable(not necessarily easily but nonetheless possible).
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Hi Sandstorm,

    Not wanting to speak for the others, but in a way, yes. Honestly, there are a number of mistakes in understanding in this and your previous post, which indicate to me that we're both coming from different understandings of what martial arts are, how and why they developed, and so on, so to clarify here:

    Ninjutsu is a particular set of skills and knowledge that are peculiar to the Japanese culture, and indeed, to a particular portion of their history. There is no "modern" Ninjutsu, and indeed cannot be any. The same way there are no true modern Kenjutsu systems, although modern blade combative systems can and do get developed, if that makes sense.

    Now, Ninjutsu is not Koryu itself, but it only exists in Koryu, or Koryu derived systems (such as Budo Taijutsu, although that is not in and of itself Ninjutsu either, but the makeup of it contains it... yeah, it can get confusing!). A Koryu is a particular system, Ninjutsu is a traditional skill set, and one that cannot be reproduced in anything other than a superficial way.
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Okay so as a martial artist you evolve. That is obvious, although some devolve. We start at point A and hopefully get to point X sometime in the future. Does the art have to evolve or adapt to do so? Look at boxers, still the same basic punches, same basic defenses but each boxer is different. Their records and abilities are different, but do they each have to start a new "style" of boxing or is it just their natural expression of boxing?

    Again, even in traditional arts, the techniques evolve from beginner level to advanced master. Even if the applications look the same, they are vastly different. The longer you stick around in an art like ninjutsu, the more you learn the difference between what you thought you knew as a beginner/intermediate practicioner, and what you know now to be the case. Your training, abilities, and techniques all evolve while simplifying at the same time. If they don't, then your teacher didn't know or show you the training progression. Of course things like dojo yaburi, musha shugyo, and actually going out and fighting were also parts of the progression.

    Depends on your definition of koryu.

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  13. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    Sandstorm clarifies his intentions regarding the naming of his system here:

    He's not saying "I have the real Ninjutsu!" He's not claiming that he found something missing, went out and found it elsewhere, and is now teaching "The Real Ninjutsu." As he explained it, there were obvious presences of movement patterns and techniques in what he was teaching.

    At that point, he'd have been damned if he did, damned if he didn't since there was a clear BJK element presence in his system. So why not just acknowledge it from the beginning? Isn't that the more transparent and respectable thing to do?
  14. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member


    I have been in debate with the name/word Ninjutsu for quite sometime (at least a couple of years) and you have all been kind enough to present your feelings with true spirit and compassion for what you do and the vast experience you have.

    I have learned from all of you and hopefully even reality please would agree to a point that we have built some bridges.

    Kobudo; you have given an excellent account of what you consider to be the problem and after much consideration I will have to agree with you. You mentioned that I was trying to represent ninpo/ninjutsu within the system which is quite correct.

    Chris has gicen an excellent account which has finalised this decision.

    please see public profile


  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Something I just thought about but what really is personal protection or self defense? For example, you could learn all the most devastating fighting techniques in the world but if you are attacked by a 30m wave, I think we all know who is going to be wishing he had bought one of those jetpack things instead. What about if you are asleep? So again, there will be arts that are better for different aspects of protection as well as "reality based situations." Reality is the same but different depending on your environment, weapons, number of attackers/people you have to protect, and as I am sure you know a whole host of other variables.

    There will be parameters on what you can do based on a myriad variables again(the law just being one of them). Can't kick well if you aren't on stable terrain for example. So where do we draw the line on what is realistic? Look at silat, a lot of people laugh at some of the low stances and weird footwork, but if they understood why they do that, it begains to become more realistic in their eyes.

    Clearly, the best defense is to not put yourself or find yourself stuck in a situation that requires a physical response but as well all know, that can't always be avoided. When it comes to violence, we get into that whole skin, flesh, bones paradigm. We can discuss and argue this topic till the cows come home but there will not be any consensus or one correct answer.

    However, if you are looking for something that you can use quickly and effectively, then traditional martial arts are not the best way to start off. Especially the arts that make up the Xkans. I think this at least, we can all agree on.
  16. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    My God we agree!!! :banana::banana::banana::banana:
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I don't mean to make offence but this sentence sounds rather narrow minded. Just clarify are you saying if your not Japanese you won't get Ninjitsu? Because I know that's absolute rubbish and makes my golf analogy correct.

    Where you are borndose not make you better at anything the reason you don't get anything is nothing to do where your from your from you don't get it simply because you don't get it.

    I'm pretty sure there are foreign practitioners that know more about it than many Japanese. It's not about where your from it's about how much time younput in your training is it not
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I think it's more that not many non Japanese have studied the system to the depth required to be exposed to certain aspects.

    I think terminology might be causing crossed wires here.
  19. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Just want to jump back a little to what was discussed earlier i.e. Sandstorm not refusing the grade, as something just occured to me.

    If sandstorm had not accepted the high grades and lets say just remained at shodan, would people be saying that...

    "Sandstorm didnt stay around long enough to get a decent grade"

    Its kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Now I personally have 2nd dan as my highest grade, and in some respects for my length of time studying the art (on and off) since 1985 this has come to be a hinderance. I know for example that if I held a higher grade that I might be in a much better position now when it comes to marketting myself and grading my own students.

    And this is the thing. we are often told that grades in bujinkan don't mean anything, but we also hear the question "What right have you got to grade your students to 5th dan in your system of ninjutsu when you only hold a lower grade.

    In the past I have also been offered grades to do certain things, open certain groups in my area, or join certain organisations. (and not just me but my students also) But I have left certain organisations rather than prostitute myself for the rank just to be a dojo leader for someone to expand their empire.

    This is nothing against sandstorm of course, as I was once trold that if you refuse a rank from the Japanese you will never get graded again no matter how good you are. And i can see why he accepted rank.

    I wonder what rank reality please is, does he believe he is worth that rank, and if not has he refused any ranks?

    Just a thought.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  20. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    Most foreigners know taijutsu, but that isn't ninjutsu per se. VERY few have ever learned the sneaking around, spying on the enemy skills, which is the basic academic definition of ninjutsu.
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