Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    I accepted the grade for exactly the reasons you mention Reality Please, and on reflection it was wrong!! And I am freely admitting to that!

    just out of interest, I have noticed that you don't have anything on your public profile, so may I politly ask you style, grade and country of origin and prehaps age if thats ok??

    Oh and by the way, if someone were to give me money for nothing I would take it!!
    Unfortunately I haven't won the lottery yet.

    With respect reality please,


  2. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Reality Please

    Kobudo asked a straight forward question which I politly answered.

    You seem to have this total hatred and discust which suggests that you are a very angry individual?? WHY??? What is the problem mate?? Send me a PM if you like, but I have watched you regarding your replies to people on other threads and you are not this aggressive.


  3. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    many posters here have asked the same question of reality please. none have succeeded. he is still as anonymous. don't raise your hopes high.

    hmm, is anybody here can verify WHEN such things(refusal of rank in front of the soke) occurred. name, date , location, witnesses? all the stories posted on the net happened just like sandstorm's, albeit with different reasons. HAS ANYONE FLATLY REFUSED SOKE HIMSELF ON RANKS?
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Wow, disgust and hatred? Not sure about that, however I don't suffer fools lightly(sorry, couldn't help that one:lowblow:) and don't like when people prostitute martial arts. I am from the US, have studied various arts, and have lived in Japan for 10 years. I studied in the Booj in the US as well for years(more than 5), but I don't count that time as what I learned I had to relearn when I moved here. I wouldn't say I was being aggressive, just inquisitive.:thinking:

  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Me. When I first moved here. I said thank you and kept training, he probably forgot and I got around having to do something I didn't feel was a good idea(accepting the rank). I mean what kind of ninja are you if you couldn't at least get away with this much? I would add that I am not the only one, I know of several people who have done the same thing or found a way to weasel out of accepting rank. It's really not that hard if you want to...
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  6. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Ok, now we are getting somewhere; You have mentiond that "you don't suffer fools gladly" or people that "Prostitute" martial arts.

    please explain exactly what you mean on both accounts please.

    So you have lived in Japan? I envy you for that.

    With respect and regards

  7. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    nope, you accepted it when you were with him. and threw it away when he's gone. when you refuse, you REFUSE.

    I understand that it is hard to say no in a japanese setting. but I explicitly asked for refusals. a refusal is like (for a lack of a better example) manaka unsui giving his letter of resignation. have you sent a letter of refusal of rank? no? then it was there, you didn't just utilize it, unlike others.

    furthermore, YOU are NOT VERIFIABLE (see my original post). you didn't even name witnesses who saw you refuse your rank.

    EDIT: several people? who? who witnessed? or what you say is just your personal conjecture...
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    i don't teach. Why, because I can't do what my teacher can consistently enough to convince myself that I can be responsible for anyone else's growth. I see over and over, people just doing that when they still aren't even responsible for their own training and are teaching things they can't do or even understand entirely.

    Even people with "good hearts" who are teaching things that could potentially hurt their students, are doing their arts, themselves, and their students a disservice. I don't like it and don't condone it. Rank means nothing(except for MK perhaps), it is whether or not you have got the art or not. Too many do not, yet are comfortable with taking rank, opening schools, and exploiting the art. However, that isn't my problem, as I am content to continue learning from a master of the art and improve at my own rate.

    Oh yeah, the don't suffer fools was in reference to what was said about you or what you said, I don't remember which(I was ribbin' ya:hammer:). If I didn't suffer fools, I would have left the Booj years ago, although no art is immune.

  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not accepting is not accepting. If you have ever lived in Japan, then you know that there are many ways to do things without necessarily resorting to saying "No!" I didn't accept, actually he said do you understand(what he was saying, ie I was being promoted)? I said yes! Arigatou gozaimashita and just kept going on about my business. There were people there, as this happened at Ayase. I think I exist so I am not conjecture, I think...

    ps-accepting would have meant that I paid money, was written a menjo, and started walking around with a gold belt(oops, that's only for Anshu).

  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I think anyone with the experience of Sandstorm has the right to set up their own system. Yes he has vast experience in other art but his main base is Ninjitsu so I can understand why he puts it in the title.

    My main base is in Arnis but I also have vast experience of other arts such as JKD Silat Mauy Thai Boxing Wrestling Kenpo Niten Ryu and I draw from them expeariancea but yet I call my group Rapid Arnis and my seniors have no problem with that as they know I do the art justice.

    Surely Ninjitsu is about adapting your techniques to suit the situation as it arises. This is true of FMA intact their main core is known as 'Adapt or die' I would have thought Ninjitsu would be the same.

    I am always amazed how many people hang on to certain ways of doing things in the voice of 'but its traditional' even if they know there is a better way of doing the same thing. I sure the original founder never done anything just because it was traditional I am sure the done it because it worked at the time and I am dam sure if they found a better way to do it they would have done that too. Isn't that how any effective art survives.

    And all this but it has do be done the way it is in Japan or its wrong further blinkers people. Its like saying you can only do real Boxing from the English as that's where it came from or you'll never be any good at golf unless your Scottish? Now we know that is daft as more people who are not English or Scots are excellent at boxing and golf respectively.

    If you do something purely because it's traditional that's ok but don't use it as a cruch and ignore better ways of doing the same thing because is not traditional.

    Best regards

  11. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    As far as the ranking issue goes, Sandstorm has quite honestly, and quite honorably, stated that he knew the rank didn't fit. Instead of possibly insulting anyone, he followed the path he knew was right and left to find his own truth and his own path. No prostituting or foolishness there. And it certainly isn't an unheard of situation for people to take that path.

    People have said before that the "Art", if you will, is about being responsible for yourself and not being spoonfed or following an easy path. Based on what Sandstorm has said, it sounds to me like he's remaining true to these principles.

    Great posts, Sandstorm.

  12. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    As I mentioned on another thread, that is a nice belt though!!! :topic:
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sure, if that was the reason people were sticking to the traditional. However, if the traditional way works best, there is no need to change it. Of course it has to be pressure tested, internalized, and the principles internalized. However, this is part of the traditional process as well, not something somebody just figured out with the advent of JKD or UFC. This kind of thing has been going on for centuries. Now if people actually got deep enough into the art of ninjutsu, they would see this. However, very few foreigners have been able to do so(and the one whom best did do so was there before the boom boom pow). Again, how do we prove it works? Look at Hatsumi sensei and the shihan, if they "got it," surely others can if they do the right things.

    It isn't being blind, it is looking with eyes wide open at the art and what it is and how to apply it. However, it isn't a what you see is what you get art, it is a deep art that requires years to master because you are constantly doing what so many gendai people say is important, tweaking, relearning at more refined levels, improving body mechanics, etc. So if people look at the art and only see oitsuki, stretched out arms, and overweight middleaged foreigners playing ninjer, let them. They will never know the truth.

    Again, you can't get any more simple or effective then principles, if you can apply them then the rest is just academic. You can't compare ninjutsu to golf as it is today, try golf when it wasn't a world reknown sport with people playing all over the world. Ninjutsu is more like golf in 2011 in rural China.

  14. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from with regard to your first two paragraphs. Please correct me if I'm wrong Reality Please.

    Would it be fair to say , that you don't condone leaving the Booj and then claiming to teach the same as the booj but independantly of being a member? If this is the case, then I would have to agree with you there. But with respect reality I don't claim to teach BJK because a) it would be disrespectful to the BJK and b) I am no longer BJK due to personal reasons, some of which I have mentioned in my previous post.

    I have been teaching for many years and have taught many professional people from all over the world and have a vast amount of experience and am also fully aware of the dangers and as such I know how to avoid them.

    Is it due to the fact that I personally have used the word "ninjutsu" in my own system that you don't like??

    With regard to your final reply:

    I don't know what was said either mate, so i accept the ribbin.


  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    By leaving after accepting the rank nobody was insulted? Interesting logic.

  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    My point is that almost NO FOREIGNERS know ninjutsu. Therefore anything they would be teaching is NOT NINJUTSU. That isn't honest. If somebody leaves after mastering the arts, they can call it what they want and do what they want. Doron left, Tanemura and Manaka senseis left. For example, SKH left without mastering the art(and his motive seems obvious) so whatever he calls his school he is lying. This is the difference I see in the matter.

  17. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    A fair and just comment in my opinion, but there again I have known Pat for many years.


  18. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    Life is full of tests. Sounds to me like he passed that one just fine.

    Perhaps if you could point out who was aware of Sandstorm's leaving due to the internal conflict over the rank, we'd both have the answer to your question?
  19. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Reality Please,

    I get where you're coming from, I think honesty about what's being taught is important.

    Would you have the same issue if rather than Modern Combat Ninjutsu System, Sandstorm:RS had called his system Ninjutsu Inspired Modern Combat?

    Or in other examples of independents people highlighted the Ninjutsu element as a contributing or influencing factor, but not actually calling their art Ninjutsu?

    Just curious...
  20. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Hi Pat,

    The right to set up his own system? Absolutely. And having the reference to it's core basis (Ninjutsu - er, the spelling is always with a "u" there, by the way), sure, fine, I can understand the reasoning for that. However, there can be some real issue if much more is added/changed, for very real reasons.

    I would assume the vast majority of what you do fits the "Arnis" moniker, then, yeah? Think of it more this way, if you've trained in Niten Ichi Ryu, then would it be right to refer to your group as Niten Ichi Ryu, despite that being a very particular body of knowledge attached to specific methods, weaponry, strategies, and so on?

    Ah, see, this is a big trap many fall into (including those in the Bujinkan, I might add). Ninjutsu is not defined by how "hard" you are, how well you fight, or even how applicable the methods can be in a modern setting. They may well be, but that is really more of a fringe benefit. Looking for that type of value is really missing the point.

    Once again, completely missing the point of traditional Japanese arts. To be frank, I'm a little surprised that you would miss this, if you have trained in Niten Ichi Ryu, as it was passed down by Musashi Miyamoto on the explicit condition that it not be changed or altered. Your argument has no basis in context.

    The arts that make up what is refered to as "Ninjutsu" are intrinsicly and irremovably linked with Japan, it's culture, and it's history. For many many reasons your argument has no basis here either.

    But I will say that there is no preclusion of someone not Japanese gaining skill and understanding in the martial traditions of Japan, just that if it's a Japanese martial art, then it's Japanese context takes precedence.

    The thing is, though, that if you start changing things because "you think you have a better way of doing it", then it stops being the very thing that you are claiming it to be. For example, in my classes, I teach traditional methods (the various kata of the various Ryu-ha that make up the "Ninjutsu-related traditions" today) under the title of "Ninjutsu" (as a simple overarching name), and a modern interpretation, based on knowledge of the law in my state, psychology of both attackers and defenders, common assaults as they exist, and effective responce to such. I do not refer to that as "Ninjutsu". I refer to it as our modern self defence. Sure, the basic tactics, fists, movements, angling, strategic postural concepts (although not, strictly speaking, the postures) all come from the classical, or traditional material, but as it is removed from the very thing that would classify it as Ninjutsu, the term is not used.

    To use your "if you're not English you aren't really boxing" metaphor, if you learn to box (even in England), and then go off, and discover that grappling, chokes, and kicks work really well as well, is that still boxing? It really doesn't have anything to do with not being English at that point, yeah?

    I appreciate you defending your friend here and on the other thread, but frankly it speaks to me of a lack of understanding of the topic at hand, and therefore isn't really as helpful as you may think. Believe it or not, the ability to fight has little to do with the classification of an art. And the ability to fight is no indication of the quality of the person as a martial artist, when it really comes down to it.
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