Increased dangers.

Increased dangers. The Martial Artist increases his/her risks?

Howwwdy.

A thought crossed my mind after reading another thread yesterday. Perhaps it's been covered before. And I'm sure other people have had the same thought.

Do you feel that you have taken a risk by starting and studying Martial Arts?

Here's two situations, pretty similar.


1. You've never studied or trained in any Martial Arts. You don't even know the difference between Tai Chi and Karate.

You are walking down the street, around 9-10pm. Maybe you're leaving work after staying back late, or even having an after-work drink with some mates at a local pub. Or you could be finishing a late night out, walking home at 3am.

You turn the next corner to be confronted by a pretty big bloke who had just stepped out of an ally/laneway. He stands over you and gets very aggressive. Determined to knock you flat out and take whatever you are carrying.

You narrowly avoid him and your instint is to run. And without giving it a second though, you do. You run for your freakin life. Getting away with nothing hurt... but your pride. But you can live with that. It hurts to have too much of it anyway.



2. The setting is the same as above. I.E. Late night, walking alone... only in this case you've studied Martial Arts. Whether it be Karate, Wing Chun, or Judo.... anything. You know your techniques, and you know how to use them effectively.

As before, you turn the next corner to be confronted by a pretty big bloke who had just stepped out of an ally/laneway. He stands over you and gets very aggressive. Determined to knock you flat out and take whatever you are carrying.

You've basically prepared yourself if this situation arises since you've started MA. You properly have never thought about it, but you've been preparing yourself for it ever since you stepping into the Dojo.

Now, as opposed to number 1, you don't run for your life. You stall. Thinking... taking time.
"Can I take this guy?", "Do I need to defend myself here?" or "Should I run?" and "I should run". Or "Should I take this guy?" and "I can take this guy".

It may be less then a second, it may be couple. But in this time the Grunt has closed in on you. No time to run now. You are in for the fight. You figure it's not that bad. "You are a Martial Artist", you say to yourself. You can handle this.

Although, within that time of him closing in, he's mate has also come out of the ally. You've got Grunt in front, and Bozo behind you. You're in for it now.

Nowhere to run, and unlikely you'll be able to take these two guys now. At least you had a slight chance with only one of them.

Ah well. Say hello to the white roof of the hospital for a few weeks. If you get there.



So, the final question.
Do you feel that you have unintentionally put yourself in more danger by becoming a Martial Artist?


And don't say you won't stall. You will.

And if I could also note, the stall is just an example. There could be any reason really.. ie flase confidence, unforseen events (such as Bozo) etc

 

Why do you say that?

I know of people who haven't. And in my last fight, although we had numbers on our side, I didn't hesitate.

 

After being quizzed by VT over MSN, and now reading this, all I can say is my head hurts thinking about it, and I think VT has a point. You probably would hesitate for that little bit longer than withough MA training. However, is this the case in every situation? In this situation I think VT might be right, although I would end up running anyway in the scenario VT described, maybe with just that slight hesitation. Still, I'd rather have at least some training than none, and training TKD has also made me realise just how little I know, and sparring a few really good big guys made me see that although maybe one day I could take them on, I wouldn't have great chances now.

 

Before MA I used to think I can take on anyone without much of a problem.

Now I don't think I can

|Cain|

EDIT - before anyone jumps to the conclusion your MA is fake

I mean that MA training has made me more aware of these kinda situations, I am now more cautious, before that some think they are the toughest one around one punch and he'll be down with a KO, one kick to the groin and he'll be down, after MA they think - nah! it just ain't that easy, it could mean from a black eye to a broken bone right down to a multiple/gun/knife fight

Just something to think about

|Cain|

 

In these cases you are alone, and were completly taken by suprise. Which can happen - ANYTIME.


In your situation you were not alone, you were with friends, and with that backup you were prepared to fight. But by the way you said it, it sounds like you saw it coming. At least by a few seconds (maybe by a few minutes, as you watch them from across the road) - in which time you have already made up you mind.

And again, you were not alone. You "had numbers on (your) side". And with that kind of support, you had proberly already mentally, and perhaps subconsiously, made up your mind. And were subconsiously prepared as a precaution, and the "stall" had already taken place when you met up with your numbers.



Another thing, which I'll add, is instinct. As far as I know most (if not all) Martial Arts try to remove atleast some part of our animalistic instincts. One of which is to run away whenever threatend. This instinct can take only milliseconds to come though -and your off.

With martial arts training that instinct may be subdued.

 

I agree.. which is why I said I know of people who haven't hesitated.

One has punched, head-butted then put a leg lock on a guy who gate-crashed a party.

Another has taken on 3 bouncers - handling them all, after the bouncers started to attack him when he was trying to break up a fight between his mate and another guy. Can't remember details, but I know two bounchers were pinned up against the wall - one in each hand, and the third bouncher who charged at him copped a thigh kick.. some guy (don't know which one) was laying on the ground in la-la land from the result of some greco.

Same guy attacked a group of guys (4 of them) alone after an idiot who used to pick on his wife at school spilt beer purposely on his wife when walking past and wouldn't apologise. Guy he beat on was a mess, guy who spilt beer on his wife ran away like a little girl.

Another chased a burglar after hearing glass shatter, did an arm drag on the guy and tied him up until the cops came.

Same guy saw his mate get hit from behind, then went up and hit the guy with a 1-2, having no idea of this guy's mates. Guy he hit fell to the floor.

I feel the results of all these situations are a result of hard, realistic training.

Edit:

Also, before I started martial arts... I would start fights. Now, I don't start them, just try to finish them if I find myself there.

Hasn't your awareness, which is your first line of defense, failed you, if you find yourself in the situation you described above?

 

I agree, athough those situations are quite a bit different from what I described above.

 

I think that following martial art training I am more aware of potential danger than I would normally have been previously,and hence am less likely to put myself in a dangerous position.(dont drink nearly as much beer so I am more in control being one of my "tactics" )
I have also thought more about the possible result of any fight and I am even more determined now to avoid them ( I think it was a Geoff Thomson book which mentioned the scenario of a fight in a pub ,the injuries,possible police action etc which may have been a result of an arguement because someone took your place at the Bar !!! .........ludicrous when you think of it but a common enough scenario )
For me discretion is the better part of valour ......and I would "discretely" run like hell and avoid the valour of a possible beating .

 

if i picked to stay and fight, id do this to both of em
http://www.mightyoak.co.uk/alsgym/grafix/Media/self defense.wmv
thanks to whoever posted this in the TKD subforum

 

I agree with eckythump. The other thing that I do now after MA training is mentally prepare myself if I am in a situation that might result in conflict - so in the example given above, I will instinctively "key myself up" as it is a situation in which I know I am more likely to encounter violence so my reactions should be quicker.

 

VT the situations you pose though hypothetical, raise a good point - I would agree that training in martial arts can and does lead to situations where individuals put themselves in greater danger due to over-confidence.

However this is not a foregone conclusion, with good realistic instruction, awareness and avoidance training and explanation of the real risks & consequences of fighting, such over-confidence can be minimised.

Additionally we need to off-set the potential 'cons' against the potential 'pros', that is - quality MA training will lead to

1. less confrontation due to greater awareness, avoidance tactics, confidence etc. Maybe a few others can back me up here, but the longer and harder I train the less agro' I experience, both in terms of the number of occasions where I am confronted and additionally in the number of confrontations where the would-be attacker has had second thoughts.

2. a greater ability to defend yourself when you have no choice but to fight.

I have to disagree with you on this, stall or hesitation may occur, however good quality training, experience and/or fighting instinct are examples of factors which can and do prevent this - Action - Reaction.

Sorry VT, don't mean to be picky but if you are saying that MA training stiffles aspects of our natural instinct to the detriment of fighting ability then I have to disagree. Good training will enhance the fighting benefits of your instincts, but don't expect this to be an instant thing.

If I can draw a comparison to illustrate my points, say you're learning to drive, will driving lessons hamper your instincts to carry out an emergency stop? Would the lessons lead to situations which 'you have unintentionally put yourself in more danger'?

 

I doubt I would stall. Right now, I know I can't take anybody that's bigger than me, I just lack the skill. I cheese it if something like that happens. Later, when I've sparred enough people to know more less who I can take on or not, and since I'm used to making split second decisions whether I should attack, block, dodge, etc, this shouldn't be any different.

PL

 

Who says that a non-martial artist would run in the first place. I've met quite a few guys that had never trained in martial arts that wouldn't run. I think this has less to do with MA training and more to do with your personality and personal beliefs. If you think that running from a fight is cowardiss than it doesn't matter if you know how to fight or not, you're going to hesitate. If you continually tell yourself that you're going to run if this happens, then maybe you will, but it's impossible to prepare for every possible scenerio.

However, Ving Tsun I do see your point. For me personally there was a couple year span in my martial arts career when I wanted to test my martial arts skill. I prayed for people to attack me so I could come out victorious and prove to myself that I was a good fighter. I never went looking for trouble or picked fights, I just hoped someone would attack me. Fortunately no one ever did and I've thought through my philosophies since then.

Will I hesitate in the situation above? Probably, there will be a lot of things to consider like: What's my best escape route; If I go this way will he have a friend waiting there; Where is the nearest crowded area that I can go to draw attention; If I can't escape are there any makeshift weapons lying around; Is there a busy street near by (running might not be the best option if I run into a highway or something and get hit by a car); etc. I will not think can I take this guy. If I must defend myself then I will do whatever it takes to go home that night and that's all there is to it. I don't want any doubts when it comes to protecting my life. Whether I have to punch him once and run or put him down I will do it. (be advised I'm not saying that I can beat everyone, but the attitude that I try to instill in myself is a positive one.)

I'm going to have to agree with Fire-Horse in that good realistic training will make someone better prepared of the possibilities of a confrontation. After learning several knife techniques and what a trained person can do with a knife I have much more respect for the weapon and would never want to face anyone that had one. While in some schools people are taught knife defenses as if they were super techniques that always worked to easily control the attacker and never get cut. Schools that teach technique A is our defense for attack B and never really pressure test give Martial artists the delusions of being a super warrior. The mindset that I know these techniques now I can kick some butt.

It seems like the more ways I learn to hurt someone the less I want to. There are so many things that could happen, that I'd rather avoid a fight by any means necessary.

Another thing is that I don't ever really see myself in this situation. I don't walk down dark alleys, and I am usually quite aware of my suroundings. But, I guess anything could happen.

 

Cool info guys.


Ok, how about this.

Forget about the stall.
Now to the main point, do you think you are more likely to fight (whether you would like to or not) because you are a Martial Artist?? Therefor putting you in a more dangerous position, if Bozo was there, unforseen.

 

VT not sure where you're wanting to go with this one - are you heading towards a conclusion that suggests training in martial arts will increase the chances of getting involved/hurt in a fight situation?

 

No, not heading for a conclusion.

Just wondering is anyone feels that they have adopted a higher level of risk by being a Martial Artist.

 

No. In fact I think the general consensus among martial artists is to avoid fighting at any means necessary. Furthermore, I think martial arts makes people less violent in nature. You spend so much time working out agression on the matt or on a heavy bag that you don't feel the need to use it on other people (unless they have it coming to them).

If you read the posts on this board about being mugged you'll see that most of the martial artists on here would give up their wallet to the mugger instead of trying to fight. I think a great deal of martial artists want to preserve their life

I have certain reasons that I would fight for: to protect my well being, to protect my friends, family, or other people that I think are being wrongly attacked, to protect my country (I was a Marine). Of course there is some grey area in there. There is no way to say if I would fight in this situation or that, there are way to many factors to consider. Maybe I feel sick, maybe I know someone in the neighborhood, maybe I have met the guy before and no matter what there is going to be a fight, maybe it won't matter if I run. I don't try to plan out every situation I'll ever get into, because when the stuff hits the fan the plan goes out the window. Take every situation for what it is, react to what's going on.

Don't get me wrong it's good to train for this type of thing through roll play or what not. It's good to visualize or day dream about possibility of "what if I were to get attacked right here and now?" But, there is never going to be any clear cut, "I'll fight if this happens," kind of thing going on in my head.

 

Whilst I agree that most of the members of this forum agree that violence is always a last resort, I can't help but feel that people do not appreciate how hard it can be not to resort to violence. Tempers can get flared, adrenaline running, alcohol can certainly make one more agressive, and for many martial artists there is a niggling doubt in the back of their mind about how they would fare in a real fight - and whilst they won't go starting trouble, they can be more inclined to accept it when it comes their way...

 

General answer:
If your MA training gives you a confidence that exceeds your ability, then this can increase the risks.

If your MA training raises your awareness of the risks, and motivates you to avoid them then overall you will be at significantly less risk.

Specific answer -
If I apply this reason to the Me V Mugger scenario - if I was confident of neutralising the mugger without exposing myself to unacceptable risk then I believe that I would do so without hesitation.

I agree with the reasoning already posted by a few that your wallet is not worth your life, however there are other factors that must be considered:

> Will handing over your wallet prevent you being attacked anyway, I know of occasions where people have still been attacked/stabbed/shot even after following the muggers instructions?
> Will the ease with which you hand over your wallet encourage repeat attacks?
> Is running away an option? Again I know of people who have turned and run from people who have pulled a knife on them, result - stabbed in the back.

At the end of the day, no-one really knows how they will react in such a situation, on the law of averages there will be occasions where over-confidence bourne from MA training puts people at greater risk, but equally the reverse will be true and the fighting back may save their lives.

However what I think is the most important issue here is that MA training will generally put people at less risk because the greater confidence is a deterrent, & greater awareness reduces the likelihood of walking into a mugging.

 

Good points Fire-horse.

I've only been "mugged" once - there was no descision making process involved. I attacked - immediately. The would be assailants came a poor 2nd place. I put that down to poor opposition.