quote Iron ox: "I have never seen the material he learned from Jang, Im Mok, but have been told it is quite different from the material of Choi Dojunim - Jang was a typical seminar student, acoording to Choi Dojunim, he lived and travelled with Takeda Sokaku - again what was taught to him from what area of Takeda repetoire, who knows." .................................................................. Thank You for those points and thoughts Sir. This is what I was more or less hoping for,Variation of technique even though the art of both men was the same root.(Root Daito Ryu from Takeda) (I also hoped for similarities of comparison,but I will take what I can get for the dialogue,lol) So should we further disect the teachings of the two who brought their version of Daito Ryu to Korea to find the Purist? Or Should we accept the teachings of the Master we have available to us,appreciate it and the work of those who came before,or fight for truth and recognition of style and condone the variant? I appreciate all those who truly work in any art as they have dedicated,time,moeny and sweat maybe some blood to learn,perfect and pass on the teachings of those who came before. I especially respect those who work and perfect the arts that require fine motor skills employment,make it work and pass it on. I appreciate the Purist,but the Purist is not available to all,so we find the art and we find the teacher who passes on the core principles and we stay and learn,love what we do and teach it and pass it on ,or we leave and look for something else tofit our need or something else to do with our time all together.
I know I will get into hot water for this. But just from outside looking in. He kind of looks like he is pimping out hapkido sorry kido. I am sure he might be a cool guy. But it looks like any one can be grandmaster under his org. I hope I am wrong.
cj I have to agree with you it does look a little odd Wow this is an interesting thread. Seo's jump from distancing himself from HKD while being in KSW, to his current alignment to HKD it is a bit puzzling. But i guess it serves his current needs. Does anyone know why he gave up his position as pres of Ki do Hae, and start World Ki Do Assoc. ?? It seems like a demotion in a way. Why would anyone step away from such a prestigous and powerful position, and then basically re-create that same thing on thier own. seems a little counterintuitive doesn't it?
Hapkido's Governing Bodies By the early 1960's the various South Korean based schools of Hapkido were already fragment from the original teaching of Yong Shul Choi. Seeking an official governing body, advanced teachers the art petition the Korean government for a formalized organization. On September 2, 1963, the Korean Ministry of Education granted a charter to the Korea Kido Association. This extended this organization the right to supervise and regulate the standards of teaching, as well as promotion requirements for Hapkido and thirty additional Korean martial arts that had not congregated under the banner of Taekwondo. The first chairman of the Korea Kido Association (Ki Do Hae) was Choi, Yong Shul. Its first President was Lee, Kyu Jin, who held this position for two terms. Ji, Han Jae and other Korean Hapkido masters were additionally on its Board of Directors. In 1967, a new President, Kim, Du Young was elected. He held this position for several terms. On 26 January 1978, at the eighth Ki Do Hae election, a new president, Choi, Byung Rin, was elected. And, Choi, Byung Gu was elected the new Chairman. At the ninth Ki Do Hae election, held on 5 April 1981, Pyo, Si Chan was elected the organization's new president.On the first of June, 1983, at the tenth Ki Do Hae election, Suh, In Hyuk was appointed the Chairman. And, 10th Dan, Kuk Sool Won, Grandmaster, Seo, In Sun was elected its president.Grandmaster Seo was the first non-politician and actual martial art master to hold this appointment. He maintained this position until 2002. He remains presdient of the World Ki Do Federation and in 2003 he founded Han Min Jok Hapkido Association in Seoul, South Korea. The World Kido Federation was founded by Grandmaster In Sun Seo in 1986 to serve as a link between the official Martial Arts governing body of Korea and the rest of the Martial Arts community of the world. With the formation of world Kido Federation, the international practitioners of Korean Martial Arts can registered their ranks and schools with an official Korean government recognized organization, which will ensure permanent documentation of their martial arts history. Unlike some private organizations that have collapsed when their leaders pass away or leave the Martial Arts altogether, World Kido Federation' direct link to the government recognized organization in Korea ensures legitimacy, continuity, and safety for all our members. World Kido Federation members enjoy registration of their records through Han Min Jok Hapkido Association which is a premier, well respected Martial Arts organization founded by Grandmaster In Sun Seo. Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is a non-profit Martial Arts organization registered with the Ministry of Culture/Tourism of Korea.
The KiDo Hae was formed to be the Governing body for Hapkido. (later it became the Governing body of all arts of Korea except TKD) So for In Sun Seo to be the Head of the Kido Hae for near on 20 years one must conceed that he was worthy of the Position and or ALOT of Hapkido Ranked People Certified and Ranked since 1983 are fakes. In Sun Seo was removed because others felt he was spending more time working with the World Kido,outside of Korea than with the Kido Hae. When people start talking about people and oragnizations giving out high ranks and Grand Master titles,people should understand how many of the Grand Masters of today got their titles,few stayed under any master to be ranked beyond 2nd-3rd degrees,so who ranked them? How many 6-7-8-9 or 10th dans were there in ANY Korean art in the 40s-60s? LOL? NONE As others began to promote themselves and or have students promote them,those senior masters looked at Juniors with equal and more rank and therefore created ranks to stay ahead of their juniors. Then we can look and see who self promoted to certain ranks?,who were promoted by their students?,who were given rank just to push an art or organization? There are many who had minimal skills and were promoted under the Banner of Kuk Sool and other arts who then went and promoted others who are called legends,Masters and Grand masters. The Koreans Give and Gave other Koreans Great jumps in these arts,read the histories and Bio's. The Koreans who came to the US Give and Gave Great ranks to some Americans to help push their arts,some from other arts,I know several Shotokan people Ranked as Masters in TKD to help teach and spread organizations. Other Americans ranked as 1st degrees in Hapkido,Judo or Jujitsu and Aikido from the military or civilian side given Masters ranking to push organizations. In Sun Seo most likely does and did this as do and did many others from other Organizations. Read the History and Bios of many,some have pages of Bio's some have minimal bio's,many have contradicting bio's,most had training to 2-3rd degrees and never trained under their original masters or any other senior,so who promoted them?? Few Hapkidoists have high ranking from Choi,now he would be the senior Hapkidoist in Korea,so who promoted the rest???LOL In 1982 Choi came to New York and Promoted Chin Il Chang to 10th dgeree to allow him to Head a reunifictaion of Hapkido,(some say it was 9th degree,whatever),in 1984 Choi promoted Master Rim to 7th Degree,so these were among Choi's top students in Hapkido,yet by 1982 how many 10th dan Hapkidoists and Hapkido oragnizations were there? History and Bio's they are out there read them and see what the truth ACROSS the board is.
why ? what happened in 2002 that made him lose this appointment. you sound very well informed on this subject, and you have cited what sounds like an accurate list of who was appointed to this position over a period of time, but what I want to know is what happened in 2002 that caused him to lose that position? I know that was your answer, and I am not saying you are wrong, but that doesn't make sense, and I have a hard time with that. Why would the pres of KDH NEED to focus on non profit WKDA stuff,,,, he already has the power, and if there is no money involved,what would be the purpose. it sounds like KDH and WKDA were a conflict of interest!!! This whole thing smell very fishy. when things smell fishy ...follow the money..... who gets paid when it's time to get certified in kdh? who gets paid when it's time to get certified in wkda? Why can't they just skip the middleman(WKDA) and affiliate directly with KDH? How does WKDA do this differently than KDH? doesn't KDH already do this?? why would you need to do it twice? How is that different from the private orgs that you mentioned? KDH still exsists so why does any HKD school owner need to go through WKDA, what is the functional need for the WKDA when KDH is the official body ? I know I sound a little skeptical, and I don't mean to come across a confrontational. But this is all very ...............................................................................................................weird. sounds like AMWAY!!!!!! MLM for tkma
Hello all, This is a good post, but I am going to abridge some of it to raise some points. Hope you don't mind Jim. Again, I want to reiterate, I think that if what a person trains in works for them, all power to them - I am just skeptical at the marketing that uses the name Hapkido when there is really very little connection to the art itself and what may be actually taught.
I think that there are many cases where variants havew clearly blazed a path while clearly stateing they are not the same as the original - look at Jeet Kune Do - lots of clear variants there - and they are proud to claim variation - but they seem to continue to grow.
I agree with this last statement - and it is therefore even more imprortant to examine a true definintion of what Hapkido is.
Interesting analogy... Amway, hum, selling products close to the original, but a little different - sorry couldn't resist.
So Seo is out of KDH for unconfirmed reasons that no one can really cite (No offense JimH, i don't dispute your answer, but I have a feeling that there is more to the story than maybe any of us know) and Seo has an org that looks, seems, smells, and operates in a very similar way and is using a name that is so arguably likeable similar that one might mistakingly assume that they are one in the same. When in reality it looks like it is nothing more than Seo's version of WKSA. Well I wonder why he was spending so much time on WKDF and not on the high level, prestigous, unique, position with KDH? HMMMMMM? HMJHKD is "non-profit" but it is "under " WKDF which, I would bet, is anything but "non-profit". Sounds like WKDA is essentially In Sun Seo Inc. he's just "using" the name "Hapkido" to further his own cause I can't blame pure HKD folks for being a little unhappy with this.
In Sun Seo,from my understanding ,was doing ALOT of work with the World Kido Organization,his brother In Hyuk Suh (who basically took over the Kido Hae in 1983) replaced him with another one of their Brothers ,I believe. In Sun Seo retained control of the still recognized World Kido Organization and created the Han Min Jok HAPKIDO Association as well as being a ranking member in the Kuk Sool Won association. To say purists are upset over what In Sun Seo or In Hyuk Suh or the Lee Brothers or Ji Han Jae do is something I do not understand as it is variant forms of Hapkido that so called purists have distaste for but that does not mean the variants cannot co exist does it? The Purists do not have to be associated with In Sun Seo,,In Hyuk Suh,the Kido Hae,The world Kido Association or Ham Min Jok or Kuk Sool Won do they? To worry about the growth and fostering of Hapkido variants does not take anything away from the purists as if one is a dedicated or interested,consumer,student or teacher they would research what they are going to learn,what they learn and what they teach and the lineage of such. Again people do not know crap for the most part about anything they join or sign up for,few are consmers who research anything,they mostly go to dojoangs,dojo's,training halls that are near where they live.
I do think it is interesting that you continue to use the word "purist" - this has very negative connotations as the term most recently is used to apply to those people seeking racial or religious purity - at the expense of others - that is not my goal in Hapkido at all. I think it is vitally important that people are made aware that this art is rare - and that the art of Choi Dojunim is still alive and kicking - despite others efforts to muddy the waters as I see Seo doing. To use the word purist like this implies this effort to properly align the art is wrong - which I will never believe it is. I think the issue is that people that are further away from the core of the art will look at their position as threatened and make valiant efforts to control something they do not posess. An accurate accounting of where people actually stand in relation to the art of Choi Dojunim will only strenthen the art, and will serve as a benefit to those variants and offshoots that started with recognized standing - BUT this is not really an issue for variants either - Kuk Sool Won should care less how they fair in such a list becasue they are an independant an seperate art - but such a comprehensive list will give the average consumer a way to judge from another perspective what they are training in.
The reference to the statement of purists being upset was in response to Choiyoungwoo's quote "I can't blame pure HKD folks for being a little unhappy with this." I am sorry I use the term Purist as you had used it prior,what is a better term "Originalists",I do not know as Hapkidoist or Hapkidoin is too general and does not specify followers of the original teachings? In Sun Seo says he and his brother First taught Hapkido,specific,then opened Kuk Sool Won,but as said The Lee Brothers seem to have had Kuk sool won prior to In Hyuk suh. The Lee Brothers also taught only Hapkido in the begining and many have said that what they taught in the early to mid seventies in the US was Pure Hapkido ,prior to their change to Hwarangdo. This is like saying Ueshiba never taught Daito Ryu,but he did and changed it over time and at various stages significant changes in the art took place ,that is why some of the earlier aikido has massive striking and as the instructors come on board the later participants say it was mostly compliant. I have no problem with Purists or Originalists,I wish I had had the chance to put in more training time with Chin Il Chang,but such was not the case so I trained under other Hapkidoists I had availibility to and found and art and Instructor I was happy to train with and stay with. I appreciate those who have found true lineage without diversion from the teachings of Choi,but as said I trained with those available and looking at what instructors under Choi,Under Ji Han Jae,Under In Sun Seo , Under Daito Ryu and Under Aikido I see the core principles constantly without diviation. I celebrate that all arts founded under and from Jujitsu ryu share the same common core principles and I do not seek to make differentiation or singularity of a specific art,but I also appresiate those who see what they do as seperate and distinct.
Hello all, I think that the issue I have with looking at other cariants is the actual level of training that the individual has in the art of Hapkido. Where I might agree that in many variants, the core "principles" are the same - or are listed as the same, the excecution of those principles is often very different. An example I see all the time is when an opponent is led one way then for no real reason reversed, then often reversed again before being dispatched - now the "principles" of the art may be existant, but that is not how Hapkido should be excecuted. Why would the same "core" principles not define this art? I do not see the ideas of Hwa Won Yu in Daito-ryu - or any other art - they are distinct to Hapkido. Why can't Hapkido people be a little more honest when it comes to the lineage issue? If someone was a3rd dan in Shotokan and broke away to found his/her own style, the variant may be great, but they are still a 3rd dan in Shotokan - and that would not change until they got GRADED higher in Shotokan. In the same vein, if someone was a third dan Shotokan, and brole away to start their own organization, they take with them that grade - then any subsequesnt grade they issue should be looked at from that perspective relative to Shotokan as a whole; eg a whatever grade from a third dan. I see the same with In Sun Seo - he is a third dan Hapkido - so how does he issue 9th dans? Granted, the head of an organization can issue whatever they want, but this is genrally done when there is a track record and large numbers of higher dans already involved with the organization with recognized rank in the art. Here is where I get lost in the argument - and can't find a way to rationalize this issue. While I am really happy for anyone that trains where they best find a fit, I am really most concerned that the art of Hapkido has been genralized and marganalized to such a degree that the real side of the art could easily be lost in a marass of wierd variation.
While i agree with you on many things Iron Ox, this is not true. Virtually all JL technique in KSW are based on Yu Won Wha, and it has been for as long as I can remember. TKMA have always had this problem. and it won't ever go away. I feel the same way. Then I remember, it's business,,,not MA and it all makes sense. What baffles me is that so many smart people seem so willing to give these "grandmasters" a pass on that Unfortunately , it looks like it already has, and that process began in the late 50's by those who most regard now as "Grandmasters". Personally I think it's a character/integrity issue. Again, very interesting thread....
The point about those who left as a certain rank and who are then seen as Masters and Grand Masters with High ranks is and has been brought up by In sun seo. i have video of him at a seminar telling the History of Hapkido and asking how these men gained these ranks. He then states that He has never given up training with his seniors and that his training has never been for himself and his advancement as others who left Hapkido,the Arts and Korea have never kept training under a senior and they took their 1-2-3rd dan and started their own style and that was that. When we look at a Hapkido Masters Rank do we just look to if he was ranked by Choi?,how High a ranking ? and or if they were advanced only under Choi's Ranking students? What was Choi's rank when he left Takeda? none he was just certified to teach. What was Mok's rank under Takeda? None he was certified to teach. What was Ueshiba's rank from Takeda? none he was certified to teach. At what level ,and by whom then are ranks allowed to be certified to teach the art? What was Genral Choi when he started TKD and the ITF? 2nd Dan What was Mas Oyama 's rank? 2nd Dan what was Chuck Norris or other tKD /Korean stylists when they opened schools? 1st degrees. The truth is Rank is a competition of who is senior,who is better,who stayed longer. Apparently Black Belts of 1-2-3rd dan are and were certified to teach or Choi would have had something to say when all these people left him and opened schools. I say do away with rank and go back to being certified to teach.
Well my point was that the principle of Yu Won Wha is not only present, but a major part of KSW foundation, which you mentioned was not the case . But yes I would agree that HKD and KSW have roots that are common and HKD as a name probably exsisted first, so yes it is at least a partial variant. Actually I see KSW as having common roots with HKD and a Ship Pal Ge (sp?) influence of equal proportion. I am not aware of any ship pal ge influence in "original" HKD, is there? I usually concede that the "what came from where " discussion goes no where, but the discussion of principles like "yu won wha" is really more interesting because it involves things that don't require a style label, therefore the discussion is less likely to carry a "style bias" and, as a result, all participants benefit in the discussion. Thanks, Ox, Jim, Thomas et. al. you guys may not always agree, but at least the forum is civil and often very informative. If guys like ya'll are what HKD consists of then it's future seems in good hands regardless of what the "old guard koreans" do. As you can probably tell I am not a big Seo fan. I acknowledge his his skill level, he has few peers. But I question his character & motives, not based on conjecture but on his behavior and patterns of behavior over the last 20 years. Is he Chang Bi or Pil Bu?
While I might agree that doing away with rank is an OK idea, the fact is that the founder of the art, Choi Dojunim used and issued rank - so it is appropriate that we also do the same. I think it is also relevant to examine the rank of so called higher dan rank and see where they came from and how they were issued. No small feat, but a first dan under Choi Dojunim is still a first dan - (and so forth) - perhaps a new "tree" should be made that reflects HAPKIDO rank as it was issued from the Choi Dojunim - this may have an interesting effect on how the art and its variants are perceived.
