impressive katana usage

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by cloudz, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. nico storm

    nico storm Valued Member

    Im not sure the analogy works, since, as pointed out by Josh, Samurai children would have started learning from about 5 of 6, and by the time they were in their late teens would have had over 10 years of training, and would be about the time they would have been expected to be taking active roles as samurai, or at least this is my understanding. At this point they would not (as a rule) be anywhere near the end of their learning journey, that is not to say that they are not capable swordsmen. And this doesn't even take into consideration the caste system, the different roles played by ashigaru and the samurai in wartime, or how these issue would have changed across the different periods of Japanese fuedal history. Also the attitude towards the world and dedication to a pursuit of a Samurai child would have been very different to that of children today.

    As for the mastery comment, Im not talking about mastery, I'm talking about levels of understanding of training. 2 different people who both study for 30 years, may both never reach "mastery" if there is such a thing, but both may attain completely different levels of understanding of their art. And levels that by design someone could not be gain in 3-5 years. I think the modern study of koryu bujutsu is far deeper than who is the better swordsman, something that is now impossible to truly gauge. If it isn't then Im not sure why we would still be studying it!
     
  2. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    That's not a good analogy - computer programming is purely mental. Take a 10 year old and a 25 year old, give them both 5 years of kendo training. If they both take it seriously and are roughly equally talented, the kid is likely to kick the adults ass. Then it gets worse as time goes on. The reason is that physical stuff we learn as a child gets hardwired into our brain chemistry. After about 18, it's just learned behaviour. Comparing starting as an adult to starting as a child is like comparing software vs specialized hardware. I started at 23 and although I'm OK, I am never going to be as good as those that started as children, never move as smoothly or as unconsciously as they can.

    That's a digression. To get back to the original argument, yes, people have successfully trained as swordsmen using either kata or sparring or a combination. The way it was done in old Japan was by and large by kata. The point I've been making all along is you just can't dismiss that. Nor can you use your experience in unarmed fighting to conclude that all those bushi were trained sub-optimally. They don't translate well.
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well I agree which is why we use both solo and paired kata as well as sparring. It seems that the some of the JSA practioners here are trying to equally dismiss sparring in sword arts, something that has been proven in the western sword arts for longer than the Samurai arts have existed.
    I have no problem with the choice from a view point of tradition. I have a problem when tradition becomes dogma.

    The Bear.
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Something else you shouldn't dismiss is that they pressure tested in combat in what I'm going to assume are fairly relatively frequent opportunity. Adding to that as I've been informed that the "kata" training did evolve to a more free drill.

    Today though in the absence of such pressure testing isn't it more true to 'old japan ' to recreate safely an environment for pressure testing that is now missing for obvious reasons.

    I guess that's why there is kendo. So really if you compare what went down with the old timers, it would be the ones doing both kenjutsu and kendo thet are more closely adhering to the past kind of experience of these men. You can only do your best in that respect.

    And as far as being historically accurate about the training methods, I think when you say "by and large" that should serve to remind us that history is not quite as black and white as we might wish it to be. The further back you want to be sure of of this point, the less you will be I think.



    It's funny the way you worded that because I'm sure you think that's what I was saying exactly. But I've found that how you say things is very important as is context. In the context of their lives, perhaps it's a mistake to say they trained sub optimally and I never made that direct claim, but If you don't mind I was always speaking about how we should train today in the here and now and what is optimal training for us .

    I've never presumed to know exactly how every old time Japanes swordsmen trained for combat.

    They had in the past much much more opportunity to take part in unscripted combat (and did) and I have been taking that into account. In the same way other arts developed out of actual combat such as FMA - the drills with sticks became ways of practicing safely. If you were likely to be going into combat fairly regularly - that was your pressure testing happening right there.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  5. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    Hope I did not leav that impression. I belive Sparring has it's place, like when recreating (correct word?) a sword art, when sensei tels you to, when having fun. It's not like the bushi never did. It's not like no koryu today do, because some do. But I belive that to do it, you must understand why not to do it, not to make sparring the end gole (in koryu that is), and I do not see that in cloudz posts.


    If you know what you are doing, but by default, no.

    It was. Today it is an art on its own and not a way to test oneself in a warrior tradition.

    They where real warriors, we are not. It is so much more in koryu than just being good at sparring.
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    This is the wrong mentality brought on by a comfortable western life. You are a warrior and you do not know what tomorrow will bring. So you train like tomorrow you will use it for real and if that ever happens then you will give a good account of yourself. It's only cheesy now because people are more concerned about mobile phones and who wins the x-factor but nothing lasts forever.

    The Bear.
     
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Despite what may have come across it hasn't been my wish to dictate goals to specific arts or individuals.






    Well it seems that's the best anyone can do today, other than to go back to what "it was" ? Regardless of "warrior tradition", that is clearly absent. It is a way of testing something at least. As I have been repeating too often I simply think that something is better than nothing in that regard.

    You may disagree that it is not better than nothing. So we''ll just have to agree to disagree if that is the case.


    I happ'lly accept these statements and do take the second one on board too. The first is moot for me as it's never been a question of "real warriorship", what ever that might mean to you. Though I think there's nothing wrong with being good at sparring and the above comment can apply to many a traditional martial art - that there's more to it than just sparring/fighting.

    If you ever had to fight being good at sparring would serve you better than not (in my opinion) - again in whatever shape or form it takes. I guess as always it's down to the individual what they want to persue being good at in martial arts. For me I like to be good at unscripted martial arts whatever shape or form, that would be my goal, if I were to have to pick one. Though I do also enjoy and value other training that builds to that, without question. However enjoying what I do is the main thing and I enjoy unscripted work with some contact more than I do other types i would have to say. So I guess it's up to me to persue arts that happily fulfill those requirements whether empty hand or whatever weapons. And I will.

    Different strokes and all that. If you're happy and enjoy your training whatever your goals are, then that's all that matters really, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hey Bear, if you're saying we all pretty much have the capacity to be warriors if and when called upon, then I would tend to agree with your sentiments. In the sense that it could "just" be you have to defend yourself and a loved one against some knife wielding punk. Knife wielding punks are all too common in London today. I guess I think more in terms of acts of 'warriorship' when necessary on a personal level. Rather than waging war in the traditional sense.






    I think that is partly a motivation for me to train as to what I see as being the best way I can train. Also I didn't take the chance earlier to say how much I enjoyed your post about the Western traditions. Excellent!

    I can certainly appreciate that being of Greek descent myself. If I should follow any style and tradition why not my own eh.. I've long had an interest in Pankration as it is.

    I gotta say i'm not much of a fan of mobiles, but X factor is pretty damn enetertaining :)

    As for nothing lasting forever, can't really argue with that!
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think different people have varying ideas of what constitutes efficacious training. Over on the HAPKIDO FORUM there is also a discussion of sword training. Matt Rogers was kind enough to provide two clips of traditional Jpanese training from the Tesshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. When I think of Korean sword training, what comes to mind is something very much like the traditional encounter in the first clip. The second clip is a more modern interpretation of this traditional training.

    "............................................

    Here is a look at some really complex kata by the most respected classical Japananese swordsman of his era:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQB5Lc1C_a8"]YouTube - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu - Part One | 天真正ä¼é¦™å–神é“æµ[/ame]

    Here is probably the fellow who represents that position today:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo"]YouTube - Mind Body & Kick Ass Moves - Death on a beach Kuroda[/ame]

    ..............................."

    No real point other than to add more context to the discussion.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Cloudz,

    Who are we? Once again you're presuming that I want to train in the same way that you do. As much as I think that this thread has been interesting, you're missing this single, highly-important point:

    I (amongst others on here) practice traditional ryuha that rely on kata training to improve their technique. The reason they rely on this is that there is no other way to train with the same spirt, speed and dynamic that our chosen ryuha expect from its practitioners. If we 'control ourselves' enough to make sparring safe, it is detracting from the ryuha's teachings and therefore is pointless. Go look up koryu and then read about how important the traditions within these koryu are.

    You have some sort of sword experience and you are presuming to tell us that what we are doing is either a) wrong, or b) ineffective by comparison to your way.

    Please don't do that.

    If you want to be the street-effective swordsman that Phil Elmore aspires to be, then fine - but don't promote that highlander-wannabee nonsense with us. If I want to learn my chosen ryuha, I go to the dojo. If I want to learn reality-based self defence, I go to the pub and pick a fight. The sword has a very important place in history (Western and Japanese) but it has no place in today's RBSD. Unless of course they invent time-travel, and even then I would put mine or Polar Bear's chances of survival above yours... ;)
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I dunno Scott, been out in the Glasgow Rock Nightclub circuit lately? You gotta see the size of some of these girls. They're built like NFL linebackers and have more metal in them than was used to make my sword. I'd need my longsword to take some of these girls down.

    The Bear.
     
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well I meant the hypothetical "we" you know.. I didn't mean everyone should train the way i think best. But that the discussion was not about the past but about "us" today. We in this sense is just another way of refering to "us". In contrast the "them" in the past. That's how I meant it ok. I think you have too much trouble with interperating things as they are written. I wasn't telling Neil how he should train or telling you how you should train. I was merely stating that the discussion wasn't about the past, but about todays era - now. It's your choice still, I'm not here to pretend your choice has anything to do with me, of course it doesn't. But my opinion of how "we" should train hypothtically hasn't changed. It's just my opinion, why doesthat irk you so much. Despite my opinions you are free to train however you like and I don't care how you train either. I couldn't care less!

    And also i don't see why you need to return to this kind of tone an attitude with me - your last paragraph. It's crap to be honest. did you miss what i was writing today to Ludde for instance. I don't wish to dictate to anyone how or what they should practice. And I've said I'm not interested in training sword to be a bad ass. I mean get real, live swords are illegal in the UK. I wouldn't dream of having any sort of weapon on me when I step foot in public. You don't know me from Adam and nothing I've written suggests that i'm interested in using weapons in the streets or pubs or whatever. The idea doesn't cross my mind. But of course I'm like every other person and IF i have to I'll defend myself and loved ones against anything as best as i possibly can

    I don't really know where you get this crap from, but it is insulting. Seriously Scott as far as i'm concerned from here on out I consider you nothing more than a troublemaker. As far as I'm concerned you can go and rot in hell. You can dream about your chances back in old japan all you like, I'm sure you fantasize about it all the time. Sad.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  13. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hehe yeah I am sad. I waste time arguing with people on various fora who are detached from reality.

    If you're insulted, then I guess I hit a raw nerve. While I practice old traditions, I live in today - that's why I laugh at all these 'if you really want to learn how to fight with a sword, you must...' people.

    However, if people just want to make a fool of themselves, there's always this.
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Just as a side note.... there is a bit of Japanese tradition that does seem to get lost in these discussions and I point it up now only because it had a significant impact on the course of Korean sword. That aspect is the military sword (see: Toyama-Ryu) and police sword (see: Keishi-Ryu) which came out of events of the early 20th century. I am thinking that these are perceived somewhat as "******* children" by the KORYU folks and not quite as GENDAI by post-WWII people such as the SHINKENDO people.

    When examining various Korean movements, especially with the two-handed sabre, the role of defense against the bayonet (see: Russo-Japanese War 1904-5) was an important influence. In like manner, the police sabre was intended to provide the most general defenses against a wide range of techniques across a myriad of Japanese traditions. That said, three things tend to get lost regarding these methods.

    1.) The material for these arts was drawn from a number of traditions and with imput from masters of a number of traditions. No one approach or flavor was deemed superior to another.

    2.) The material was intended to address the realities of combat and combat survival. The idea of dueling with a person was secondary to dealing with off-beat situations that easily required lethal force. Pretty and elegant were not required and (at the time) neither was Self-actualization or intellectual insights.

    3.) Following the hostilities of WW II both KEISHI-RYU and TOYAMA-RYU (in all three "flavors") became activities for personal growth and discipline. My sense is that this is consistent with the transformation to the to KORYU practices during the TOKUGAWA Shogunate and is what is perpetuated today.

    Once again, I am not pressing a point as much as working to add some perspective and context. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Nothing I've said suggest i'm detached from reality. You are the one that claimed that all you need to learn how to fight was kata and a brain and technique would magically appear like superman.

    I'm insulted because it's you twisting things and I'm a law abiding citizen and characterizing me as someone who would willingly get involved in violence with weapons to "prove" something or whatever is an insult. And i am entitled to get angry when someone insults me, so like I said you can rot in hell for that one.


    Well i did have a very good laugh at you when you said that brain and kata quote (with a sword or empty hand you you went on to claim). So why were you talking about what is needed for fighting with a sword if you live in today as you claim. when are you going to fight with a sword then ?

    I thought what you said was particularly detatched from reality so i jumped on it sure. I mean Scott you said "like superman"...

    [/QUOTE]

    Yea right, that was years ago, and was not serious on going practice.. Some of us had a fun day of sparring, helped out the leisure centre and raised money for charity - you're the one who should be ashamed. Elitist windbag that you are.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Was there not an incident in central Glasgow, about a year ago, where 2 gangs of headcases went at each other hell for leather, one with a katana?

    If one is unfortunate to get caught up in a street scrape like this, then, any training with weapons can help (whether Kata based and/or sparring oriented), but a lot of other unpredictable and messy factors will come into it.

    I can see that in Medieval warfare, decisive powerfull cuts will be effective, and training to that effect would be nescessary. With reference to the above Glasgow incident, you cant totally discount it happening in a street near you - and you getting caught up in it. A cooler more deceptive method like the lower of the 2 vids can be equally if not more effective, but almost certainly extremly difficult to master.

    The manner of such training is down to the indivuals concerned, and how they wish to pursue their skill development.

    However, being attacked by a katana/sword wielding thuug in the street will more normally happen through a vendetta (I think in the Glasgow case, the geezer came out of a car, katana ready), or through foolish actions like walking down the street, katana/broadsword in hand, in which case arrest by the Police should happen, but may not if your local Law Enforcement is overwhelmed with other activities.

    For more regular street scraps with sharps, smaller knives are easier to hide and produce at the opportune moment by your resident thug. FMA drills/sparring do train for this type of incident, about as well as can reasonably be anticipated. In particular, whipping and slashing cuts are covered in many of the exercises and drills in quite a few FMA styles (who all seem to influence each other.)

    'Eskrima' is a Cebuano interpretation of latin language (Spanish/Italian) for 'scrimia' - fencing/sword-fighting.

    For thoose interested, these guys show some of the European influences on Eskrima/FMA. The sites are all in Italian and maybe a bit difficult to interpret without some Italian knowledge, but they have a reputation for being extremly serious about preserving their heritage.

    http://www.novascrimia.com/ita/home.php?area=1
    http://scuoladarmi.splinder.com/
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  17. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    Well, in one breath you claim you're only talking about the way we need to train today, and then in the next you say something like that above, which says that you are in fact criticizing the way many people trained when their lives depended on the training.

    As I've said before, I don't understand this MMA approach to sword-fighting in this era. Either study/recreate something historical, or study something competition-oriented. People who are training to sword fight "for real" outside of a historical tradition are delusional.
     
  18. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Hahaha now I know the plot has been lost. Here is the full quote:

    If you don't grasp sarcasm/irony, then how can I possibly expect you to grasp reality?

    Nowhere did I say that. The point was you are trying to explain how best to learn to fight with a sword. Now, unless you study a traditional sword art (or a gendai one with traditional roots) or you are a sport fencer, why would you need to learn how to fight with a sword? Unless, of course, the person in question is in some desperate need to be able to fight with anything.

    Please engage the grey matter and explain once more. I didn't understand a word of that.

    See irony comment above.

    I re-read that thread last night - and laughed my head off at your claims. Elitist? Naah. I just think that while boffers are no doubt fun, your comments suggested that you were serious about you studying a sword art. Cracked me up.

    EDIT:

    See Neil's comment above about historical/sporting. The same opinion as mine. Why? Because he actually practices a sword art, as do I. Now, where does your mindset come from?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    When I replied to you I explained a bit more than that didn't I. If they were good in the past it was much more than kata and a brain that made them good. I would think the ones that couldn't make the grade quickly got found out in the field and got killed, the ones that had it in them got better and better from live practice - and their continued training of course. I took his comment in the context of here and now - I don't accept that the same comment applies to the past. And I don't believe it was said that way either.

    Do you think it is delusional for me to watch a an FMA guy destroy someone else with a stick in a contest and then assume that it would be any different if they had blades in their hands instead. Having watched it, it is also clear to me that he just wouldn't get as good as he was at what he was doing without the contest and sparring.

    This I don't think is delusional at all, on the contrary I think if you mantain in the face of that that you could fair just as well with scripted drills only. That I find delusional, having watched FMA stickfighting.

    If it goes for FMA with short blades why not with longer blades? Like I said many times this is just my opinion. If you or anyone else want to maintain different ideas then you are free to do so.

    I don't care. train how you like. just don't expect me to buy that all that is needed is kata and a brain to improve at martial arts. At least not the way I like to practice them.
     
  20. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    You insist on dragging that quote around from Scott when you clearly misunderstood the humour with which it was intended. You also insist on ignoring our explanations of what kata is, or dismissing it as "well, that's really sparring then". You simply can't or won't seem to wrap your brain around a new concept.
    I've added the bolded "not" there as I think that was your intention. Live blades change a lot. Have you ever seen the drill where instead of knives, people use magic markers and old clothing? Both sides get cut, a lot. If you think the possibility of serious injury and the actual infliction of said injury during the fight doesn't make a difference, then yeah, you're delusional.

    But that's not the kind of delusional I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who decide to reinvent the wheel with sword-fighting. They dismiss FIE fencing or kendo as irrelevant games, and they dismiss HEMA or koryu as outdated and in need of modern training methods. So they get shinai or wasters or invent their own weapons, and then devise sparring methods that suit their idea of the way they should be training. They then think that they are training for real swordplay using modern methods, when in fact all they've done is invent a new game with different equipment and rules.

    Or to take another analogy: suppose as a new recruit in today's military, you could be trained by a grizzled old veteran who's survived a couple of wars, or by some young officer with no field experience but a lot of book learning. Which recruits will turn out better?

    Now the HEMA guys are kind of like the officer - lots of book learning but no direct experience. And the koryu guys are like the students of the students of the grizzled veteran - no direct experience either but hopefully the hands-on training has survived the transmission. The delusional ones are those who dismiss the books and the veterans and think they can come up with a better path on their own.
     

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