the precision in his cutting is pretty cool.. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_gcPGI-ZMI"]YouTube - "Modern samurai" - Isao Machii ベストãƒã‚¦ã‚¹ï¼‘２３[/ame]
Excellent focus and targeting skills. However, in the end it's just more parlor tricks for ego inflating, and has nothing to do with actually using the katana the way that it is taught to be used.
This has been discussed on KW and E-Budo quite a bit (go check it out) but pgsmith and Fish are both spot-on.
Why do you say parlor tricks, please expand on that. I could argue that doing the sword katas is nothing more than ego inflating. But hang on some people think they can learn to fight from doing them. And i should take these people seriously.
It's a big difference between precision cutting taking minutes to prepare and standing against another man with a sword. One takes practice the other takes courage. The Bear.
It is exactly the same thing as the "sword demos" you can see at karate events, like cutting vegetables off of someone's stomach. It has a lot of wow factor, but really doesn't have much to do with what is actually taught. Test cutting is done in many schools, and focus and targeting is certainly a part of that training. However, test cutting is done in direct relation to the precepts of the school. The actual cutting is not the focus, cutting with the body and sword in the correct position, and your awareness spread so your opponent's buddies don't cut you down when you're preoccupied, is the focus. Many different aspects have to come together appropriately to cut correctly. To focus on a single aspect, which is what the fellow in the video is doing, is not what is taught. It makes the act the same as juggling. Interesting, fun to watch, hard to do, but not really worth much. It is easy to see from the video that he has concentrated a lot on cutting, but not as much on the hundreds of things that go with it. The singular focus and total body commitment to the cut makes it good for showing off, but very poor for bujutsu. This is why I refer to it as parlor tricks. Kata are simply tools to teach your body to respond in a certain manner. You don't learn to fight with them, you learn how to move with them.
Well how many men exactly have you intentionally cut with a sharp sword ? And what takes minutes to prepare. the skill in that mans cutting I'm sure doesn't take minutes to arrive at. If all you needed were courage eh.. every drunken sailor would be a master swordsman. Of course sure, if all you wanted was to stand in front of someone with a sword, maybe you're right. Frankly I don't think a true swordsmen exist today in these kind of traditional martial arts.
Your answer is a good one. But I wonder if those things you are seeing lacking aren't just there because that is what you want to see this here - 'just parlour tricks'. To accept that the man may have an all round skill set too as well maybe too much to swallow for some folks. You've barely mentioned a handful of things you see lacking (not even) but in the same breath you allude to hundreds of factors coming together.. Sure it maybe that he adapts his skills to these feats and brings a different focus and specialization to them when he is demonstrating them. What's wrong with that. But how do you know he does not have the wider skill set too ? maybe you do, if so can you share those findings here. Well I guess this guy should go back to some of his school kata then so he can come back to "cutting with the body and sword in the correct position".
Zero. Although I have given and received duelling scars, but those are from unintentional injuries. Well I put my body where my mouth is. So all I can say is come and train one weekend. I'll give you are sword and an opponent and you can see for yourself what it's like and then you can compare the two. As long as you read our risk assessment before and accept the risks I am happy. The Bear.
I was criticising the showmanship, as I believe while we need to promote JSA in the right way, this does not show us in that 'right way'. As for the gentleman himself, I will point you elsewhere: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=373453&postcount=14 http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=373453&postcount=15 The full thread is here: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20218
Bear, Are you using sharp swords to attack eachother and if so what protection are you using (still no clips as of yet)? I'll assume thats to be full contact, and what am I to be comparing again. I'm not sure what you are getting at. I'm not a coward, but I'm also not a reckless fool without a life to get back to. If you have adequate protection from the live blade then I don't see how you require any more balls than other people sparring in martial arts. To be honest you have no good reason to be sparring with live weapons anyway. If you are vitally protected from the the live blade what's the point using it to spar eachother other than ego inflating bravado ? I've been hit very hard before and I can live with it, so what's so 'brave' about what you do that requires such an invite ? But heck if you pay for a flight to Scotland and a hotel room, i'll come train with your group. By the way bear don't feel any need to prove to me that you're ' a true swordsmen', i know you are maybe one of the few that trains this stuff the best way possible. But come on surely you can see that a 'true swordsmen' exists in the history books (by and large). training as good as it might be doesn't make a 'true swordsmen' - having trained for and come through a genuine (life or death) duel or battle involving live swords just might. I'm sure there are folks alive today in certain part of the world who have come through bladed fights, just not sure how many used swords against eachother!
I don't think so. The singular focus and total body committment are pretty obvious, even to someone that hasn't studied the sword arts. If that's what you really feel, you're welcome to your opinions. Yep. Spend a decade or so practicing a Japanese sword art under a legitimate instructor, and you'll be able see what I'm talking about. That's why I'm tending to talk in generalities rather than specifics. What's wrong with that is that you cannot disengage one from the other. It is an entire mind and body set. Once you've learned it properly, you can't simply turn it off. So, since it's not apparent, it's just not there. Besides which, even if he was, by some strange twist, a fantastic martial artist, what he was showing on those videos is still just parlor ttricks, and unrelated to bujutsu. That is a true statement. None of us actually uses a sword in the manner which it was originally intended. We don't train to become "true swordsmen", we train to simply become better than we were yesterday. Cutting vegetables on a TV show won't help any of us in that respect, therefore it is deemed pretty useless.
We don't use sharps, no training facility in the UK would allow us. Nor would we have many people to train with after a duel if we used sharps. We always wear a fencing mask but sometimes we wear padded armour other times we fight unarmoured. Trust me, it's unlike any other sparring experience you've had. You're the one who claimed that cutting mats was the same as fighting with a sword. I'm offering the opportunity to test that theory. I can provide test-cutting and sparring with steel weapons and afterwards you can tell us what you think. A swordsman is just someone who knows how to fight with a sword. No more, no less. It would be the same as me saying you are not a "true martial artist" because you have never killed with your art. The Bear.
Ok , but you're using metal right? Padded armour, yes. But i doubt you can go very hard without it, but then i don't know why you would need to either.. But you know it would be an experience for sure. I'e watched Dog brothers sparring and similar and it can be pretty extreme, but then so can other kinds of sparring and there's always chances to get injured. I'm sure it would be an exciting and exhilarating experience but then i have sparred with makeshift weapons before with just a helmet, just not metal weapons (padded plastic replicas) and we went full throttle. I think I know what to expect, just more pain - and I've felt that elsewhwer enough times - so sure I'm capable of putting the experiences together and having a good idea what it would feel like. Good Lord man! You need to brush up on your reading and comprehension. Where did I give you that impression??? Show me, and if that is what i did then I sincerely apologize because that is precisely my problem with the criticism of such clips. That they are criticized in comparison to other activities rather than being taken and appreciated for what they are. It's like comparing a tai chi form with xma an mma fight, a brick breaking demo and judging them on the standards of eachother. This guys taken a specialised skill to the extreme. i can appreciate that for what it is and see the relevence and admire it. Maybe we have a difference of opinion here and that's alright. There was a thread not long ago on another forum about a famous old Italian fencer. One of the best if not the best in competition. He had a REAL dual and there were photos of it. His form was completly different in the photo (considered bad), he was in positions he would never teach, frankly he looked like a rank beginner.. I think you underestimate the role of fear if you ever faced another swordsman in that way. You may like to tell to yourself that you can fight with real swords for real, i would too - and maybe you can, or can adapt better than most. But my point is this - it is as yet untested. And perhaps you would go back to looking like a beginner for a while (assuming you didn't die very quickly) Having said that chances are high that you would fair better than someone untrained. But there are some things in life that can't always be be taught or passed and dealing with extreme things, dangerous things like Live swords. Some people either keep it together (their skills) or not when things are really extreme. Like Formula One drivers or similar. Untill you get into the 'formula one car' you'll never know for sure - it'll be faith. Also i don't consider myself a 'martial artist', particularly if people want to define it with a kill count LOL.. I'm just a guy who enjoys training to fight, and enjoys sparring - I'm in it for the skills, and the challenge of gaining them.
Well it's funny but some people judge on an end product in martial arts - so what's useful about your end product and how do you display it and test it? Also why is how you get there any more or less usefull more useful than your perception of this guys training - it's subjective, so yes we can kepp our own opinions for sure.. You can say that his form is off and I wouldn't argue - but you can't argue with his end product. He acheives what he sets out to do. If you were dualling with one person you wouldn't need to worry too much about battlefield awareness or tactics for example. Why would he train or perform these things in the way you would train to be on a battlefield (for example). Just training in the traditional way for traditions sake is not a good enough answer for me. Also i wonder how much all this training that goes into your kata or test cutting all these elements aren't just something to occupy yourself all these focus here and there, this small detail, that small detail. The real point is to do the job at hand efficiently. Maybe you are just kidding yourself about how much such details matter, how do you really know when it untested?I think genuine training for the battlefield was a lot more 'earthy' than a lot of JSA indulges in - not that i think your training is useless to you that is. Can you show me their relevence in kendo. Could you watch Kendo and judge it by kenjutsu or Iaido standards of movement and awareness ? You've fallen into the trap of judging this guy by your specialized standards that are not relevent to his end product.
Nonsense Cloudz. Hell I used to be a Glasgow Bouncer and had my fair share of "adventures". I've trained in many different arts and I know that slicing veg is alot different to fighting. One thing that fight definitely teaches you is that specialisation is for insects. The Bear.
Umm you're being silly, where did I say that slicing veg was like fighting. You already said that i compared this clip to fighting or was like fighting, THIS IS nonsense bear - QUOTE ME or retract this crap you are putting in my mouth. NOW! I even said words to the effect of "should I takes seriously those that think you can learn to fight from kata". I was having a poke at ScottUK comment from the other thread. Go back and read. And quote me. Why would I feel differently about test or precision cutting feats. It's not fighting. Does it teach a skill that can be/ is applicable in fighting with cutting weapons. Oh well I don't know bear - why don't you tell me ? I would compare it to kicking a bag - it's not fighting, but you are training something ( a skill) that can be used in fighting. This is ridiculous..
