IMA anti grapple and anti lock

Ok, this will probably be the last missive from me (though I never can seem to stay away).

I've been hit by some of the best (and yes, Master Su can definitely whallop, though the best is his Bike-Fu story) on both the IMA and EMA story. And TaiChiButterfly:

I defintely don't want to go down that path, but I do have to say that even you breakdown there gives me problems as many EMA's do utilize jin and IMA's go far beyond jin. I really need to point that out and I really will clam up on that subject.

Again, I understand that those first videos are demo videos. But, the point that many of us have raised, is that while watching the demos are interesting, we'd really like to see that slap used against a resisting opponent. Thats it. Thats all. And, yeah, I'd like to see a better shoot (even on the high line).

Part of the reason that I say this is that I've had my back hit (and hit others backs) while shooting. And I admit that I'm not an IMA expert, but I've yet to experience a strong enough slap (with the exception of a stick but being brought down on my upper neck) to stall my forward energy. Especially against a flexed back.

Do I think that this couldn't work? I'm not going to say that. But again I'd really like to see it tested more aggressively. To put it a different way, in demos Yellow Bamboo can put down people. But I've seen video clips of that failing under pressure testing. While I don't (again I'll stress) I don't think this Sifu is trying to pull a Yellow Bamboo. But until I see that attempt at resistance I just have a hard time buying it. And I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

It's a good little demo film. But there's world of difference between demos and pressure testing.

- Matt

 

Of course not, but the best way to show case its effectivness, and negate the nay sayers (ie most of MAP) would be to have it being used against a resisting opponent in a non orchestrated sparing match. After they have seen how it is supposed to be used when someone trying to hurt them is attempting a throw, then you can pull apart all the elements etc. Its like showing someone the final picture of a puzzle before getting them to make it if you know what i mean.

 

No. That isn't the function of that. The purpose of resistance testing is to build honest belief systems. Because you work out with your sifu on a regular basis, you have abelief system. But you can't expect us, who haven't seen it and can only judge on demos, to have that same belief system.

However, many of us are qualified/experienced enough to judge footage. Seeing him pull that material off against a resisting opponent (and not even in a sparring situation) would help build that belief system.

Make sense?

- Matt

 

Maybe this is where confusion arrises. I am not showcasing a 'new thing' here. This was instructional footage for existing students of ba gua that already have an understanding of the principles.

Hence the reason i posted it in the IMA forum and not the main 'general' area.

sorry for the confusion.

I do indeed. And you point is obviously very valid. but as i say .. not sowcasing anything here just putting up some clips for my fellow IMAists. If i was wanting to 'launch' a new wonder move it wouldnt have been on here .... Those clips were just to give some Ideas nothinig more.

I dont .... I am mierly responding to the posts. The function of THESE video's is to give other guys here some idea's, accept or reject as you wish ...

of course it does. Does what i am saying about the context of the clips make sense - instructional detail vrs demonstration. I dont have footage of this being used against me fully resisting. but as i say i may get some at some point.

Thanks for the comments.

Chris

 

Chris,

Your points are excellent and well taken! So I think we all didn't understand that was your intention in the first post.

- Matt

 

And herein lies the real problem, hence the reason I jumped on Sonshu the way I did.

As far as the videos went, I do have to admit that my biggest beef was the laughing during the demo. It takes something away from what you're demonstrating! I am not saying you need to be serious, but a bit moe resistance and a bit more formailty and structure may have helped your case as opposed to a demo shown from what appears to be someone's office or living room. Part of this is about credibility, and presentation is a big part of that.

But what got my goat about some of the comments in this thread was the utter and complete lack of understanding displayed by many of the posters. Matt, while I don't want to get into the EMA versus IMA debate, TJB does raise an excellent point, albeit it in a roundabout manner.

T'ai Chi, Bagua, Hsing I... these are very different creatures than the External arts. And let's face it, many people here have not seen the real deal, and it showed in this thread. Comments such as "this was not real martial arts" are completely unfair.

This isn't just being able to come in here with kowledge of "punch-kick-choke" (sorry to borrow the screenname!). Understanding what went on in these vidoes requires at least some understanding of what bagua is all about. What are the mechanics of that slab? How is the body redirecting the energy? Etc.

Having said that, I think we all agree that perhaps the videos needed to be a tad more professional and offer a tad more resistance than we saw. However, I am glad middleway posted these as a student who has begun the bagua section of the curriculum! I love this stuff and would like to see more videos of it!

 

I don't think it is difficult to understand, and that the techniques are being given
the benefit of the doubt. If he had said he was going to shoot fireballs out of his eyes, maybe not.. the basic message i'm hearing is:

"Interesting, let's see it pressure tested."

To bring up something to most of us haven't seen "in the wild" before is very interesting. If i'm convinced it works, I'll begin to incorporate it into MY training as well. But i'd like to see it "presssure tested". Until then, in many of our non-IA minds, it comes off as Dim-Mak in the "trust me, it works" mode.

 

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I just though some people were assuming that a slap caries no force, so just wanted to suggest that not all slaps are the same, even though on the outside they may look similar.

 

BKG - what's the problem with the teacher laughing whilst doing a demo? It's an IMA - he should be mentally relaxed, especially when training / demo-ing - he's playing, not fighting for his life.

I think one of the problems with video of internal martial arts is that the applications often look effortless when well executed. I have video of me being used as a 'dummy' by one of my grandmasters - and even when I'm resisting and trying to counter the technique he still makes it look as if I'm not trying - and he's laughing whilst he does it. Similarly, his strikes (often slaps) look like he barely touches me - but when you're on the receiving end of them you know about it! Add to this the fact that he's an 'old man' of 77 and most people would look at the video and claim it was unrealistic and poor martial arts!

The truth is that any demo is unrealistic. If you want to spar / fight you aren't going to get specific techniques - just an appropriate response to the particular situation. The only way to truly judge the effectiveness of any of these things is to be on the receiving end - and Middleway has, to his credit, had the guts to offer a demonstration to anyone close enough to experience it. I think he deserves some respect for that. I just hope Sonshu lets us know how it goes...

 

First, amazing that you jump on one of the defenders of the video, go figure.

But, since it's a small issue, if you plan on videotaping a demo and putting it out there for public comsumption, you have to consider the audience.

If I'm making an advert to attract the parents of small children and basically run a day-care-kwoon, then smiling, laughing instructors are a good thing.

If I'm making a video to post and end up posting it on a website full of hyper-critical martial artists (which we are), I'd make it a bit more formal. People will analyze and criticize these videos ad naseum, and it doesn't help you look credible when you're posting a video, calling the thread "anti-grappling techniques" (which obviously bunched up the panties of a few people!), and not only do light to minimal resistance on the tehniques, but laugh through the video. That may be appropriate "in house", but for public consumption, not so good.

Now go back and read where I actually told off several of the naysayers, complimenting the video and the techniques and their lack of understanding.

 

I agree with you completely. But the point here is that this video was not shot to put up onto forums but to help alex's students and others interested with some idea's.

Its great that this thread has turned around from argumentation to polite conversation.

Thanks guys.

Cheers
Chris

 

Couple points (hopefully that won't totally derail the thread). Honestly, with the exception of the most extreme EMA or IMA, I don't see T'ai Chi, Bagua or Hsing I as being particularly different creatures from mainstream EMAs. In fact, I'd argue trying to create that schism is the path of pain and losing the external in the internal and visa versa.

I do agree that there are throws and unbalancings in the IMA that often look like magic (and I've been thrown by those). But the fact is there are techniques in the EMA that look that way as well. And, especially in arts like Baji and Hsing I, theres a heck of a lot of external practice in there. There also is in some of the more linear drilling in certain Bagua systems (WHAT??!!! Did he just say linear drilling in the same sentence with Bagua??!!). And I'll argue that jin concepts are build into many traditional systems (in fact I've seen people make a very convincing arguement that this is the real purpose of makawara training).

Now I totally agree that claims that "there were no martial arts in there" are silly. And I've had IMA folks leave palm shaped bruises on me. But, if we do take those videos beyond the "IMA concept sharing" phase, I still have personal problems believing in the stopping power of that slap against a concerted forward surge.

BUUUUTTTTT..... After watching it again, I do think the slap to the floating ribs could work against someone who is trying entangle you. Thats provided that person isn't presae surging into you. I actually place far more faith in tha than the back slap.

Oh and personally I have no problems with the laughing. You make a good case for a serious demo. But I'm all abuot having fun.

Either way good points and good discussion all!

- Matt

 

nice post matt.

One interesting thing about these sort of strikes is also the psychological impact that can have on the reciever. When entering for a clinch of take down, taking an unseen heavy strike to the spine or ribs can make you hesitate from a mind perspective.

You momentarily and instinctively open a gap in your throwing intention. This can then be immediately followed by the slapper ... (for want of a better frase ... ha) .... in the form of other types of strikes or a throw.

The need to 'defend' this attack to your spine .. a sensative area ... can give all the gap thats needed.

you can also see Vlad of Systema Using slaps to counter grappling intention in this clip.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/holds1.wmv

just some other points on using palm strikes when someone is trying to throw or grapple you.

thanks
chris

 

I am anything but close I am a couple of hundred miles away but we hope to catch up at the MAP Wales Meet.

For my money on the strength of what internal stuff I have seen to date it is one of the following

A: Fake as said Dim Mak - Trust me it works type answers
B: It does work but you need to put so much external force into it to make it work that its not really an Internal move - slap etc
C: It is a technique which will irritate but cause no real damage
D: It is just a technique that has a real slim chance of working

I will gladly post my findings here as I over the years have played around with some internal stuff and it is not for me on the Fighting side but it is good fun stuff.

I will go so far to say the video was a poor poor example of what to do and I had the sound off so did not hear the laughing.

 

I know some people who are into other systems but are also keen and respecting on Systema and I respect them for there skills in there main martial art. For me the jury is out on it - I have played around with it and it seemed to be asking for too much faith in it than what I was willing to give.

Again this video is defending from one very poor attack so not really a great example. Shoots suck, grabs are not followed up etc.

 

Sonshu,

You've just stated my take on systema as well. I just have never seen it demo'd against anything that I'd consider aggressive/resistive force (especially in a free response environment). The grabs in that video just don't have any resistance behind them. While some of the principals seem sound, the execution (like some of the bad Aikido I've seen) seems to rely far too much on a complient partner.

Anyway, this is shifting this thread far off course and we can continue it somewhere else!

- Matt

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree, Matt. I think there are differences in training methodologies, philosophical differences, and mechanical differences which make the IMAs different from other mainstream MAs.

Well, maybe I had lousy instructors, but I've studied 5 other systems, and never once was I trained the way the bagua stuff is being trained. Take it with a grain of salt, maybe I just had lousy instruction. But heck, even the other parts of my own system are NOTHING like the bagua part of the curriculum (that opinion is obviously open to change in a few years if I have an "AH HAH! moment).

And hence my request for a more formal demo. To use a palm slap against a shoot requires a lot of body mechanics beyond smacking your opponent in the back (I'm simplifying here, work with me). And we just didn't see that in the demo. But for the record, I'm working on that stuff now, so I have an idea how it's to be applied. But most people don't, and that's a point I'm standing by, claims of "I've played with it" nonwithstanding..

Yeah, but I'm familiar enough with MAP to know how people around here work. HAd it been more formal and less goofy, and with a bit more resistance, I suspect this conversation would have taken a drastcially different turn.

 

Nice vid clip Chris - got any more like that?
:Angel:

 

out of interest what you think of these systema video's?

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/strikes vv1.wmv

here is a systema wrestling / grappling clip

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/wrestling D.F..wmv

sonshou. Your views on internal stuff is what most will find and for the majority of IMA schools i would tend to agree ... there are a few that really 'have it' .. I must say i am not one of them! Im just a begginer compared to my teacher and his teachers ... but i am glad to share whatever i can. hopefully will see you at the meet.

We seem to be going round in circles about what the clips 'should have been'. But hey we got a good conversation out of it and thats why these forums are here.

TCB there will be more clips up on the uk ba gua site regularly i will post them here too.

Regards
Chris

 

not bad vids but on the wrestling vid it didnt seem like they where fully resisting? or was that part of the drill?

systema looks good though something i havent really heard of or seen much.