IMA anti grapple and anti lock

Matt is exactly right. We're not insulting anyone just by asking for proof. If it really works it should be no problem getting footage of it on camera. If us asking for this footage offends you, then maybe you should think about why.

 

Minor point Matt...
In the vid clip you showed the guy in pj's looked very ungrounded and didn't make any kind of committed effort as he moved in. The guy also made no use of his arms during the initial takedown so he apparently had no grappling skill himself. If he had rooted into his attack instead of floating in like a dreamer, then the takedown would not have worked so well and pj's could have taken control. Anybody can set up a vid like that by picking rubbish opponents. They both looked sloppy imo. Not impressed.
Overall, it looked like two guys making out to me
(Hope you don't mind my critique btw, the other link said it was to be expected... lol)
:Angel:

Timmy - ever heard the expression "the camera never lies"?
Let me tell you a secret: it's irony...

 

But if it's his club doing the filming, and what he's talking about really does work under pressure, there's no reason why we should suspect him of fixing it... right?

 

Look, I'm as big a fan of rooting as the next guy, but I frankly have a hard time (even as someone who works within the IMA and the CMA realm from time to time) buying into static rooting as a sole defense or a particularly effective defense against a good shoot. However, what we're getting to is an ideological difference that won't be solved in a discussion forum.

And as far as your comment "The guy also made no use of his arms during the initial takedown" was that in reference to the Karate man or the BJJ man?

My point however, is that the video does display a person making a concerted effort to take his partner to the ground. That is something that the orginal video simply doesn't show. And I hope we can both agree on that.

- Matt

 

thankyou for your posts matt and everyone ...

I envy your training with master Su ... he is very skilled.

regarding your posts.

I think the main argument against what your saying is that you are trying to pick appart an instructional film where i am the 'dummy' ... so to speak by somehow thinking that it is a demonstration of real fighting.

As TCB has stated, if this were a real demonstration you honestely wouldnt see too much on film. it would happen in very small frame and all you would really see is me drop to the floor in pain.

I have already stated that if i was to actually fight or grapple alex things wouldnt happen as shown, I would be stupid to try such locks on someone so much taller than me .... but in order to demonstrate principle sufficiently for instruction this is the way things had to be done.

The big misunderstanding in this thread is that these video's somehow demonstrate the principle at work in real like 'street' or competition 'sport' environments. I have at no point claimed that they do.

What i have said throughout is that they are principles that ARE useful in real situations ... this is different from saying that these video's ARE real situations.

Also i have said that these principles are NOT stand alone ... But are useful when used with other ideas and principles.

you make very valid points matt and i agree with most of them ... but taken in the context of the video clips and the situation i feel that many of them are irrelevant.

I can show you ALOT of BJJ and MMA tuition video's where demonstration of principle and technique is staged, pre arrranged or unrealistic to make the learning process easier for the viewer. Does this make the content any less relevant?? Of course not ... but if i were to show you them in Isolation they would be a staged demonstration of technique and unfortunately i dont have enough server space to provide the entire instructional film ... and i am sure Alex wouldnt be too happy if i did!

one thing that may be bringing things into this strage area with this thread is the way that these clips seem somewhere between clean technique and free but uncommited work. The reason for this is that the movements i make were not arranged and so the principle is demonstrated against a random attacking idea. IMA's are not technique based as you know but principle based.

Timmy has asked for proof that this works ... i have offered it in the form of a personal demonstration ... his level of skill shouldnt matter. The principle should be clear regardless of his level and i can cater my power output to his needs if he doesnt want to be hurt. This is an offer that far exceeds the posting of a video IMO.

I hope that people read what i say and understand what i mean. Arguing over 'street vrs sport' 'this isnt real' or 'the attacks are rubbish' isnt really relevant when none of those things are claimed as relevant or significant.

To highlight what i mean .. THIS ISNT REAL FIGHTING, THIS ISNT STREET DEFENCE, THIS ISNT REAL ATTACKING METHOD .... this is just footage of a principle from an instructional film.

as i have said on numerous occasions ... this is footage from an instructional video. Take footage out of a MMA or BBJ or Muay Thai video and i would say you could see it out of context just as you have with this.

Now when it comes to my body being a dummy for this woork in a realtime fight environment against Alex.... I know his power and wouldnt want to be 'that guy' .... But as i have said ... i may be able to get some footage from one of my classes if we cover anti grappling methods. I have JJ black belts and MMaists in my class that are very capable graplers.

Happy training everyone. No need for hostility.

Chris

 

bla bla bla, you still havent got to the bit where you explain how slapping someone like that is supposed to do anything. if you post a video, expect scrutiny. if people call BS on it (and with such a thing how could you NOT expect them to) you should have something better up your sleeve than "no really it DOES work honest" because that doesnt cut the cream cheese. we all know that a BJJ choke is going to work because we have all seen it. the various video tapes and instruction manuals out there with demonstrations of them are for people who already do BJJ and just want to sharpen up. slapping someone as a counter to a takedown is something ive never heard of before so obviously id want to see it in action.

 

I dont care if I get flamed for mocking your ability here.

you're the guy getting slapped right?

What kind of shot is that??? It might just be the worst I've ever seen.

I know you've said you have a BB in Judo, which is great, Judo rocks.

Many Judo guy's dont know much about double leg take-downs though, and yours is really bad, even for demonstrative purposes.
Check the pics posted by Matt for good examples of what they should look like.

As far as the slapping being effective? the dude's like a foot taller than you!! You took dozens of those slaps, no blood, no injury, barely a reaction.

your claims of them being dangerous seem silly if they dont even seem to register much with a complient partner outweighed and outskilled to this degree

your claims of being a 'dummy' for this drill is also rediculous.

what use is training to counter non-existant techniques? You're showing an ineffective counter to an innefective take-down.
These counters would go to poop against an actual double-leg, no doubt. (unless you have proof otherwise)

you then go on to tell us all what the video is NOT

"It's not a real move"
"it's not for the street"
"it's not real fighting"

It begs the question: what IS it's purpose? So far I'm clueless.

 

A good slap to gall bladder 20 and to the back of kidneys you wont be thinking about Grappling.

 

Please give examples of dodgy MMA or BJJ instructional videos?

 

No one is saying it is sole defence, neither is the (misnamed) slap. It is part of the defence.

Totally agree. this is an EMA(and/or sport fighting) vs IMA(using jin etc killing or seriously injuring the attacker without a ref to stop it) argument (again) totally pointless. What I would add is that the defence demonstrated is at an opened up body grapple whereas the low shot you asked to see it used against would require a different technique imo the one shown would be not the one required for that.

Fairly obviously the PJ wearer (?)

I do agree. But I could take someone that tall, vague and uncentred down and I have minimal training in that technique. The original clip shows a high grapple defense. Chris is the dummy not someone trying to show a full on grapple taken to its conclusion. This is all about ego's because he said anti-... in the original posting. No one here is 'anti grappling' or 'anti grapplers' I love that stuff personally.
It's just a technique demo - Get Over Yourselves

Nice comment Yogi btw
:Angel:

 

You have to hit it - goes back to the eye strikes, not one person disputes being gouged in the eye works its just landing it which is the hard bit.

Course if you have not got me perfectlty with your one shot its fight over and Sonshu wins by a quality Submission.

 

Timmy if you're that cynical at 20 you are going to be pretty sad and lonely at 30 imo
Get over yourself m8
:Angel:

 

I have watched the first 2 vids and I have to say SHOCKING!

The person attacking - sorry but it has to be said your moving to clinch was shocking even if done slowly it was poor form.

Your attempts at locks, throws and chokes were really bad as well especially considering there was no adaption to the height of your target.

The instructors techniques I am anything but convinced that they would work at all.

 

No he is not cynical - just his eyes openend to what real Martial Arts look like. Nothing shown in the original clips is even close.

 

You and me both mate

 

Excuse me?

And this comes from your intense study of IMAs, right? (I'm gonna pick my breakfast up off the floor now).

I'm generally all over crappy videos, and yes, as demos go, this one wasn't all that impressive (sorry,the Sifu was even laughing during one of the demos). However, my school does bagua and t'ai chi, and there is a lot to be said for a well-placed palm strike and open hand blocking.

Try it sometime for more than a week, you'd be surprised. (Of course, there is the whole issue of application, but that's another thread on weak training methodologies)

 

So you having a pop at me and then agreeing the vid was shoddy - ?????

I never said palm striked dont work - use them myself and also open hand blocking. I am saying the demo was crap and I guess yours looks nothing like that.

Was not having a dig at you and cant quiet work why your trying to have one at me??? I know plenty of good TMA stuff

 

OK ................. if someone calls it BS and i say i will show them in person ... that isnt 'no it really DOES work honest" that is a I WILL SHOW YOU IT WORKS .....

How many of you have SEEN ba gua in real combat?? how would you have seen Ba Gua in real combat ... bodyguards and backstreet brawls in china dont generally carry around video cameras ....

Here you state that the BJJ video's are ment to help people DOING BJJ sharpen and nderstand what they are doing. THE SAME IS TRUE HERE.

It wasnt a shot. It was an entry for a hip throw.

Where is the attempt at a double leg takedown???

I had deep bruising on my ribs both sides rendering me unable to train for a week. but they lasted 4.... Belive me in this session I took some injuries. Bruises all over the place ... mainly from these strikes, a rotator cuff injury and kidney injures.

Please quote from one of my posts where i saiud they are too dangerous .... i havnt. I just has said they are not trained and thus not used by most grapplers.

My claims of being a dummy for this TRAINING FILM is not rediculous ... it no different to BJJ video's where the instructor is just sat there on top of the partner talking about how to grip a gi or similar .... he's not resisting ... hes not attacking .... what rubbish!

It is the same as the MMA and BJJ instructional films which arent ACTUAL fighting but TEACHING STUDENTS A PRINCIPLE.....with a compliant partner for the instructor to demonstrate on.

I didnt say dodgy now did i ..... do people have a problem reading here ... you are all arguingh on the stuff in your minds ... NOT WHAT IS ACTUALLY BEING SAID!!

Its not about hitting points .... its about hitting HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

training in a gym wont give you this sort of HARD slap or palm strike. it isa the result of extensive tendon training.

This was not a move to clinch ... man alive how MANY TIMES ...... this was a move to hip throw to allow my teacher to demonstrate a principle.

I dont need you to be 'convinced'.

ha ha ha ... oh dear.

I will post a new clip soon.

anyone actually wanna READ this post ... are are we still gonna hear what we want??

Cheers
Chris

 

As your in the UK PM me details as your in Kent right? If so I am happy to take you up on that offer.