After spending the last 2 hours reading this thread, the first 15 pages anyway, reminded me exactly why i left TKD in 2000. The back stabbing, the in-fighting, the interminable politics, crazy rules and gradings. I just couldn't take any more. In fact, it made me distance myself from ALL martial arts. In the end i had to be dragged back into a Dojo by a work colleague, who wanted to do some sparring drills.
I had to leave TKD due to circumstances beyond my control (work, relocation, etc.) and temporarily settled on a small, relatively unknown Kenpo Dojo to hold me over. I ended up falling in love with Kenpo due to its emphasis on practicality over flashiness and the relative lack of politics (at least where I trained at). I haven't been in a hurry to get back to TKD - it feels good practicing something and not being constantly bombarded with blatant nationalism and outright lies repeated as gospel. Don't get me wrong, TKD is still one of my main arts and I have dedicated years of my life to it, but it is very refreshing to get away from the nonsense that has nothing to do with training and actually takes away from training. Plus, this Kenpo stuff is pretty addictive.
If you're constantly getting bombarded with that stuff you're training at the wrong place. The instructors I know are pretty open and clued up on the history of TKD. MItch
Yeah, I've figured that much. It is more of a school thing than an art thing, but I have seen it be an issue at every TKD school that I have trained at to various degrees. It is more of a product of the sore history from the motherland of the art and the fact many old wounds have still not healed completely. I don't think that it is an inherently bad thing, especially when taking such things into consideration. I just personally get tired of constantly hearing "The Korean Martial Art" being mentioned over and over again. I am well aware of the art's nationality and I don't really care where it comes from as long as it's good, lol. This sticks out even more when you actually leave the art for a while and train in something where the nationality is completely a non-issue because the focus is more on actually applying it in the real world. On my first test in Kenpo (orange belt), I was required to remember vital points on the body and one variaton on a lapel grab technique that involved breaking the attacker's arm. On my first test (yellow belt/white belt) in TKD (in more than just one school), I was required to remember and recite out loud that TKD is "The Korean Martial Art" founded by the Hwarang from Silla and used to unite the three kingdoms. Issues with the "history" aside, I don't see how remembering such a thing would verify or improve my skill level in TKD. It's little things like this that get old after a while. I'm not trying to rag on our art, and everybody should know the history of our art, but I understand why such things turn people away from our art and I understand the sentiment because I am not in a hurry to come back and put up with many such things myself, especially having experienced the proverbial breath of fresh air by training in something else. Think of it as me being sympathetic and understanding toward those who just have simply had enough when it comes to our art, instead of blindly attacking them and questioning their dedication (and no - I am not assuming that anyone here is doing that).
Yes of course. But you also have to add in the competiting histories of TKD, not just the national pride issue, that most informed martial artists know about. Gen Choi, because of his political postures, being 1 of the most outspoken critics of the military dictators when he fled from political persecution & being considered a traitor fro bringing his TKD to the enemy NK, was also written out of the majority of the recordings of history, to not only punish him, to also hide the karate connection he openingly admitted, but to break him & marginalize his opportunities & efforts to speak out & expose the human rights abuses of the SK military dictators. Those who helped him develop his TKD, were also written out of history as well & also excluded for the most part by Gen Choi himself, as he tended to take credit for everything & he was looking to promoted himself to a higher level to be in a better position to find his detractors & feed his ego. He of course didn't ever credit his TKD detractors for the great work he did, as that would weaken his hand, as he attacked them back by saying that they were karate. He did not acknowledge the great work they did, in some cases even better than his efforts. It is a real mess, but getting better as the political system has changed & will continue to change, hopefully for the better. History usually gets it right in the end. We just may not be at the end yet. But all of this is helping
The TKD situation here in Milwaukee is just ridiculous. There are so many "grandmasters" here, every school has at least one it seems. One school owner went from 5th dan to 8th dan after attending a 'seminar' over a weekend. Others literally have 10-12 year olds teaching adults. I had to get out of the TKD schools when a teenage instructor literally threatened to take my belt away for not "bowing" to her when she came into the training room. I laughed my head off and walked out..... '
The language I used was a little more blunt than that, I believe I told her she could kiss something on my way out......
How disrespectful, I hope you bowed on exiting the training floor? Seriously though, TKD is in a pretty bad state, especially in Northern America, and due to no regularly body I cant see the situation getting too much better! What I'm starting to see happen though is due to the MMA craze and the fact they are loosing revenue, these same schools are infecting other more reputable arts and lots are jumping on the MMA bandwagon without any real skills to back it up.
God this thread has been all over the place! I want to go back to earlier points - no I don't want to slate Miss Waters as I know nothing of her so can not make a judgement but I do just want to raise my eyebrows at being a 5th Dan at 20??? In my organisation it would take a min of 17.5 years to reach 5th Dan for an adult - for a child grading times between Dans is doubled.
5th Dan at 20 while suspicious is not impossible. If you started at age 4 and went to 5 classes a week for 15 years then you may reach 5th Dan at TKD. However how many people actually have that time and dedication
I don't find this to be so true where I live, in Canada. I train at a solid school and don't find much criticism of the art outside the dojang. On the contrary, there are a number of MMA gyms in town with quite dubious credentials. I am not interested in the politics of the governing bodies (WTF or ITF) whatsoever, though I train in an ITF school. I actually find WTF schools quite uncommon here.
Listen I guess this is not impossible, but then again it goes to the core question of what a BB is? To me a BB must have a certain level of maturity. So for instance the ITF has a minimum age of 9 for a 1st dan Jr BB. They must wear a half white & half black belt till age 13. At 13 yoa the clock starts for 2nd Dan, which leaves 14.5 as the youngest age for 2nd dan, 16.5 years for 3rd Dan & 19.5 for 4th dan, with 21 years old required to be a certified international instructor. So for me, 20 is much too young for a 5th dan, JMO
LMAO Seriously though I don't teach kids until they are 8 and even then I have reservations that they are not grasping martial arts concepts - ok they can kick a pad, spa and do patterns but it is only about 12 years when I get any sensible answer about why they want to be a BB. For instance some answers to this question so far have been 'so I can be kung fu pandas master and live in a hut' or the standard 'so I can beat everyone up' (and yes they are put right on the last.) My own reasons for wanting to do MA as a child was that I was obsessed with Monkey (showing my age!) and wanted to fly around on a cloud. I did judo as a kid (there weren't any Monkey style cloud flying classes around) and can honestly say I had no grasp of MA concepts - in fact I used to practice throws on the pet dog I am ashamed to say. I started Tae Kwon Do in my teens and had more of an understanding due to maturity and life experience. Yes whilst kids may be technically able can you really believe they understand the tenets - I mean try turning a 9 year olds playstation off mid game and see what self control they have!! My own son who is 9 wrote me a letter detailing how he was leaving home on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wed, and Fri (not Thurs, Sat or Sun for some reason!) because I wouldn't let him grade. I explained I wouldn't let him grade because he had messed around in classes (to me that is failing courtesy) and not practiced enough. He actually started training when he was 5 (Not the adult syllabus- but has been doing it long enough to have gained a BB in some organisations- but now he is my student I won't let him grade until he shows maturity not just ability to perform patterns- it has taken him 4 years to reach blue belt) Aside from maturity and displaying tenets in their personal behaviour a lot of kids think they can grade as soon as they know their next pattern - they fail to grasp that they need to perfect it and not just make random shapes in the air.
