Didn't even know this thread existed until it got resurrected this time around. As it is I'm just commenting on what I see. 15 year old third dans. Child assistant instructors. False advertising. I think the call for video was a way of pointing out that the only way we can truly judge Ms Waters abilities is to either train with her or see some video of her in action. It'd be the same for any instructor really. It just happens to be yours this time. Personally the three points above are enough to put me off. And having to train with 13 year olds. Cripes...that sounds horrendous. I remember that from when I did TKD years ago. Didn't like it then and I don't like it now.
I think he ^ Would not have so much to criticise if he didn't feel Hawks was advertising itself as an MMA gym as well as a TKD club. I can see where he's coming from - it is a little misleading.
The website can easily be reworded if necessary. It's been a great hit since everyone on here has been talking about it & last night we had 7 new members. Looks like we can't be all bad. (not gloating too much) lol. Everyone has their own opinions & should be respected for that.
New members don't mean anything. That's just people walking through the door. It's the training they get when they are there that's the key. Describing what you do as MMA is not an "opinion" and doesn't need respecting. It's plainly just wrong. What sort of MMA record do your fighters have? The last MMA gym I trained at had a smattering of fighters with amateur records you see. Kind of helps with the MMA'ness of the place.
I stated before I didn't think it was bad, it looks like Hawks is very popular. I've been objectively defending Hawks for most of this thread now. As I said before as a marketting tool I'm sure it's excellent. You are probably aiming to attract non-martial artists through the site, and those people probably won't be discerning enough to understand the implications of Mixed Martial Arts or the other little things that might seem a little mis-leading or over-sold on the site. I suppose if people DID expect an MMA training session in the usual style, well, they might be surprised. I don't really know first hand to be honest - I've never trained in MMA, the closest was an art called Taesudo, which was basically an independant organisation, taught by an instructor who was 5th Dan Taekwondo, 2nd Dan Hapkido and an ex competitive Muay Thai Fighter. And that involved little to no Groundwork during the few months I trained with them so... I think when I was training Lau Gar that might have led to something similar at a high grade, to MMA, but not similar enough to call it that. I don't think you need to advertise MMA, I'm sure that's not what is drawing students to your site and club. In some respects this thread has probably done Hawks some good - I'm sure your hits will have gone up and many people probably see the site and like what they see. It looks professional and well put together in my opinion. I suppose I DO take small issue with some of the content. However having spoken to you, I feel I have some understanding of what is going on here and I would genuinely love to come and train with Hawks for at least a few weeks to give it a try. I won't - I live nowhere near Portsmouth, but hey...
The point is that MMA does not mean "a mix of martial arts". In the common parlance, it's a specific sport. In the same way that "association football" doesn't mean "any association of sportsmen who hit a ball with their feet", it means the specific game with the nets and linesmen and bimbo wives. Do you think it would be right of me to open a football class and only teach people how to hold a ball between their feet and hop the length of a running track? I mean, hey, they're using a ball and some feet so it is football, I could argue when "footballplanet.com" called me out on it on their forum!
Sorry to be Mr Picky here but I disagree with that too. People should be respected. Opinions should be questioned (when freely offered on a discussion forum). In fact I think you respect people less if you don't question their opinions.
A view is the same as an opinion. I think ultimately if someone has a differing opinion to you then it's right for you to question it and compare it to your own opinion - then to change your opinion or argue for your interlocketer to change theirs. Ultimately if neither party can change theirs then the statement - "That's your opinion, I don't happen to share it." Is the only logical and ammicable end to the conversation. At the end of the day Hawks can advertise itself as an MMA gym if it wishes to - there's nothing illegal about it doing that. However if it chooses to do that, then it needs to accept that some people will be of the opinion that it is misleading and selling something which it does not provide. The ultimate test would be to get trading standards involved and argue false advertising, but due to a lack of martial arts knowledge I tend to think the case would not be brought to court. I happen to agree with PASmith that it probably is a little misleading - but at the same time Hawks can advertise what it wants. Ultimately our advice is there to be used or ignored. You please who you want to please in these cases - if they feel that section is helping to draw potential students in and it hasn't caused any issue - can you blame them for wanting to advertise it? Even if people who are a little 'in the know' see it as mis-selling a product?
Completely playing devils advocate here I've trained at a number of different MMA gyms over the years and they generally are one of two breeds, 1 A striking club that teaches a bit of Ground 2 A BJJ club that teaches a bit of stand up What do you guys think constitutes a MMA club? For example, Would you consider Machidas Karate Dojo a MMA school as its teaches Karate and BJJ / or is it just a Karate School that also teaches BJJ classes. One of the gyms I cross trained in was a Mauy Thai Gym that also had separate Greco roman Wrestling classes, this is advertised as a MMA gym? I have also trained at an MMA club that didnt teach any stand up at all, it was all grappling based, is this a MMA gym? IMO, I think there are two types of MMA type clubs, Type 1 Single based arts that also cross train in a secondary art, Type 2 Gyms that's sole purpose is to train for MMA competition, So my question is, if TKD Hawks teaches Taekwondo and BJJ, are they a MMA club / Type 1 I think you can have clubs that teach more than 1 art and you ca have clubs that just teach for MMA competition, Thoughts?
I would describe Hawks as a Taekwondo CLub with the oppurtunity to cross train in other arts. We do some cross-training at PUMA, Tang Soo Do, Bo Staff, kick boxing etc... But we don't call it MMA. Obviously non of these syllabus are geared towards MMA competition but I think clubs should steer clear of selling MMA training unless they believe their training is geared towards competing in MMA competition and preferably have some sort of record of success in that area. If a successful MMA fighter wants to start a club, and he wants to train people to fight in the MMA competition then that is clearly, unequivically an MMA gym. The Taesudo I did for a while, would describe as Muay Thai with some cross-training in Hapkido. I think some arts, due to their relative level of success in MMA are maybe candidates for offering MMA training or training that complements MMA, for example BJJ or Japanese Shoot Fighting. Taekwondo doesn't have a strong MMA record so I don't believe that applys here.
Sorry man, I know you are trying to be neutral, but just because they are advertising to people with no previous MA experience doesn't make it right that they can mislead people into signing up for a class that isn't what they wanted to get into. This kind of advertising is a kin to the earlier days when kung fu clubs opened under the guise of Chinese Karate, or just Karate. The reason it's effective is because it's misleading and rides the coat-tails of todays MA trends. Why do some clubs get heavily scrutinized? Because frauds and McDojo's need to be exposed for what they are. If a club is honest and decent, they would have nothing to hide.
I suppose my point is, most newbie martial artists probably don't want to go as hard-core as competitive MMA training so I don't think there'd be disapointment there. I think a seasoned MMA fighter who was thinking of changing club would see the club for what it was and not train there - or go once and realise that it wasn't what he was looking for. I suppose the only danger is someone naive joining, training for a while and then entering themselves into an MMA competition and getting injured because they were ill-prepared. I really think they would be better off advertising it as cross-training rather than MMA. Legally nobody can stop them though - there isn't really an area of law that is sympathetic and understanding of Martial Arts that could rule on something like this at the moment.
I think MMA is fairly hard to pin down but it's much easier to see what is NOT MMA when you see it. Obviously there's a grey area. For example Gavin Mullholland does Goju Ryu and has students doing well in MMA competitions but probably doesn't describe what he does as MMA. MMA is the format his students compete in to test their skills. To him it's just Goju like he's always taught it. My old BJJ club had MMA classes (instructor had a TKD background so could strike a fair bit). Again I don't think he ever called it an MMA club. Despite having students with good MMA records and the credentials to back up the name. It was a BJJ club as that was the core style. So it's not cut and dry. I just know that TKD Hawks doesn't look like MMA based on their website. Perhaps some of their fighters have MMA records I don't know about?
I know PASmith has a bias against young instructors. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it. If I moved to the where the Hawks were I would gladly work out with them if they gave me a good workout etc. I would, however, raise an eyebrow if they told me we were doing MMA. To me MMA is very much a sport and if, during sparring sessions, I wasn't doing a lot of sprawling, working for armbars, etc I'd feel like there was some false advertising. Sambo has competition rules that are essentially MMA with a gi (this is the world championships that Fedor competes in every year), but even then it I have never seen it referred to as MMA. I believe they just call it Combat Sambo and with the presence of headgear and the gi in competition/etc it plays out differently than MMA. Even Kudo doesn't call itself MMA, although the rules are relatively a good approximation. Now would I quit over it? Would I get righteously indignant and say, "You guys can't call this MMA!!!!" No. I'd just enjoy the workout for what it was. But I also wouldn't feel tempted to enter any Amateur MMA matches with the feeling I'd been properly prepped.
where on the website does it say TKDHs teaches MMA i think it lists what hey teach and the training page list the detail of their base training which is TKD. nowhere does it mention MMA competition training or alike Surely anyone who is looking to start something in MAs and finds a site with as much detail as TKDH.co.uk surely they would lookin around the site first no???
