I'm getting started in Ninjutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by ceyeb0rg, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sorry, I can't really get into details for obvious reasons but...

    I trained in America, saw what the difference was when I first came to Japan and decided never to look back. It wasn't easy, nor was learning what it takes to be a disciple of a Japanese master, but I wouldn't change it for the world.
     
  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Fair enough!

    I'm happy for you, that however you did it, you got where you wanted to be/are on your path.
     
  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Is there anyone else here who trains in Japan?
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Is it just americans you think are poor? Or just everyone who isnt japanese?

    For instance would you take correction under kacem, or is that below your standard?
     
  5. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I do. What would you like to know?
     
  6. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Same thing I asked pleasereality!
     
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I see.

    I was training in Canada and came to Japan the first time as a budo tourist taking part in all the classes in hombu and some shihan's classes outside of it. Hated the country but the training was better than back home.

    Continued the training in Canada for another year or so and decided that if I really want to do this I should do it right and so sold all my possessions, got a Working-Holiday visa just before the age 30 deadline, and hopped on an airplane.

    I did nothing but train for four months then when money was running out I got a job teaching English (of course) which had me working only 5 hours a day I so could still attend hombu/ayase training all the time.

    Here is where I'll say things people may take exception to (but it's part of my larger point, I promise). Being in Soke's classes each week for months gave me a chance to see the teachers and resident foreign practitioners up close for a considerable amount of time. I was not impressed, particularly with the level of many of the foreigners living here. These people were/are spending large amounts of time with the main dude in the organisation and they weren't moving like him or seemed to be progressing towards moving like him. I almost left and went home.

    Then I changed my way of thinking. Instead of training every night in Hombu with a different teacher I would pick one and just train with him.

    After some searching I was introduced to a shihan at his dojo. I asked to take part in the training and he said yes. Immediately he started picking apart my form and basics and showing me in much detail the correct way to do things. How many people who come to Japan regularly to train experience that kind of thing consistently?

    The answer is an incredible few.

    At the end of the class I asked if I could come to the next one. At the end of the next one I asked again if I could return. I kept asking that question for the first several months. After that it seemed like the older students in the dojo along with the teacher started taking a greater interest in me.

    I want to make something clear here though and this may be where my thoughts differ from someone like PR. I am not learning the nine ryu (something that seems to be very important to a very vocal few on this forum). I'm sure the shihan whose classes I attend is capable of teaching the ryuha but that's not what's happening in the dojo. Yes, I've been shown unique things to certain schools but my rank certificate and such will never indicate that I am knowledgable to a great degree in a particular school.

    PR will insist that the only way to learn the schools in detail is to come to Japan. I actually agree with him on that point. My counterpoint is that even if you come to Japan you likely won't be taught the schools in the way you hope if you are focused on the nine schools and their traits and differences. Is it possible? Sure. Anything is possible. Is it probable? Not at all.

    PR will bring up Doron as an example of someone who got it. Fair enough. But what does it say about how these schools are taught now that the example he brings up is of someone who started training 40 plus years ago and hasn't been back to Japan for 20 years and now is effectively off the map. Doron is more legend now than anything else. I'm sure he prefers it that way, too.

    If it was probable that you could learn the nine schools in detail by coming to Japan to train with the teachers here then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would see far more examples of just that given how many people are living and training here (and making a living from training here -sigh-) now?

    You need to be a special type of person/student to get into a special kind of teacher/student relationship. Things have to work out for you in a very special way. I'm sure everyone living and training in Japan thinks they are special. However, evidence is to the contrary. And the majority of people are training with the Soke of the schools! If training with the Soke isn't enough to make you knowledgable/adept at the schools that make up the Bujinkan then maybe the focus Soke has placed on his training is something other than the schools.
     
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Nice post and great points - thanks
     
  9. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Fantastic post. Thank you so much!

    Really interesting glimpse into your experience and I feel better informed for reading it.

    Although I'm not someone who is interested in training in any of the xkans I bet that info will be useful to any potential bujers or anyone thinking of making the move to Japan.

    Props for dropping your life to move to a country you disliked purely for training. Pretty ballsy.

    If you are not learning the ryuha in the typical sense then would you suggest you are learning Taijutsu? The bujinkan budo Taijutsu is informed by but not a direct transmission of the ryuha?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I've never said that most of the local foreigners were good or going along the same path that the Japanese masters of the arts have. Nor have I ever given the impression that moving to Japan was some magic elixir for proficiency. It is however, the only way that you would ever have the potential to master these arts.

    Many of the Shihan teach in a fashion similar to Hatsumi sensei, however not all of them do. Without a doubt they do know the ryu very deeply(especially the ones they have menkyo kaiden in), and could teach you them and not BBT if they so desired. That is all that matters. The rest is up to you and your relationship with your teacher.

    Doron isn't a legend, he is proof that what I say is possible, even if you are a foreigner. If you spend the right amount of time and effort with the right teacher doing the right things, you can master these arts(if you're lucky). You cannot do that outside of Japan. Nobody said it was easy or probable that the vast majority of people would or could do so, just that it is possible.

    The soke show is interesting and awe inspiring, but in the long run, not that conducive to learning or perfecting your basics. Without such a foundation, the things he shows wouldn't be possible anyway. Training with(as in in the same building at the same time) Soke isn't enough because his goal and focus isn't on correcting the mistakes and basics of foreigners who come and go like the wind. Big groups aren't the best arena for personal correction/instruction anyway.

    If you want to play with BBT, you go see Soke, if you are interested in learning the actual ryu, you obviously have to seek out someone who is willing and able to teach them to you. Which is pretty much what I've been saying all along.
     
  11. pearsquasher

    pearsquasher Valued Member

    I agree with all that PR is saying and I've only been to Japan 8 times but have experienced an atom of a taste of what he means having come from the "attend any class" posse on first few visits thru to "holy basics correction!:bang:" on last few visits (Someya Sensei).


    However the fact is that there ARE 500,000 bujinkan students in the world with certificates in BBT.

    This is an issue for many although for me I don't mind because I see value in:
    - going once a year and getting basics corrected
    - teaching twice a week and working on:
    * basics
    * kata I practiced in A)Japan B)with my own teacher who goes twice a year C) seminars of like-minded folks
    * my own henka from the kata

    I'm going to guess that most non-Japanese resident shidoshi do the same kind of training and more and more seem to be finding a Shihan to guide them in Japan

    This is VERY far from what PR and Benkoya do - but aside from moving to Japan which I neither can or want to, do they think its valuable? Just curious.

    Do they think the quality of long term vising shidoshi to Japan is getting better, given the idea of latching onto a Shihan is spreading? Is that even the case?
     
  12. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I am learning what my teacher is willing to teach me. If I am being taught Oni Kudaki in some classes then I'm learning Oni Kudaki. If I'm being told this particular Oni Kudaki is from Kukishin Ryu then I'm learning some Kukishin Ryu. If I'm being given some information regarding the differences of certain waza between different schools then I'm gaining some knowledge into the schools. If he says, "This is how it's done in Gikan ryu' I think, 'Holy crap, I've just learned something from Gikan Ryu.' All of this is Taijutsu, of course, but not in the sense of what you see in Hombu classes where the movement is inspired by the body mechanics Hatsumi sensei has developed from studying 9 different schools. It is quite often ryu-ha specific but I'm not going through the proper progression a real student of that school would go through. I don't think any of the Shihan/menkyo kaiden holders went through that progression either. A lot of their learning came at the hands of Hatsumi sensei who needed bodies to throw around in order to test and figure out what he was being shown by Takamatsu sensei. I think Doron received much of his training in this way as well, but I wasn't there so can't say for certain.


    It's up to each individual to determine what is valuable for him or her and, in your case, if you feel it's worth it for you then you should continue to do so. For me, and I guess already mentioning the fact that I dropped my life for the sake of training puts me firmly in one category, if I could only rely on 1 trip to japan a year to get training in even the basics, I'd be doing something else with my time be it the local judo school or some grappling, etc.

    I don't hang around visiting shidoshi enough to efficiently evaluate them but those people who were the kind of people who looked for proper guidance and instruction from the beginning are very noticeable. Those who came along later will take years to raise their level significantly given the scarcity of their instruction and correction.

    I also feel some people choose one shihan as a kind of badge of honour. 'Everyone sucks which is why I've chosen one teacher who can teach me the basics'. (even though I see him once a year and I don't even know if he likes me).


    Thanks for laying your thoughts out in this way.

    This is the best thing you can do for yourself if proper movement is important to you.

    If you've gone through the realisation that your basics aren't up to standard you should realise that the practice you've been doing for the many years up to this point, based on improper or sloppy basics, has instilled in you incorrect movement. To counter that you need to train just as diligently for just as long in order to repair them. I don't know if teaching will lead to accomplishing that.

    Ok

    Ok

    What do you mean by like-minded? Are these people students of the teacher you've chosen to learn your basics from, in which case they can offer you correction in place of the teacher you see seldom?


    Oh, God no.


    Being in a position to receive constant instruction and correction is not an easy thing when you're so far from the source of your knowledge. I think Hastumi sensei has in some way taken this into account in how he has set up instruction at Hombu. 99% of the people there aren't around him enough to make giving them detailed instruction a good use of his time so he gives them ideas/concepts and things that could possibly help them.
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Based on what I've seen, I'd say that most people who teach do one of a couple things:

    1) Teach what they've been teaching for years

    2) Teach what they saw when they were in Japan last to supplement 1)

    3) Make up stuff and call it henka

    It is nearly impossible to correct what you've been doing wrong for all those years without starting over from scratch, and when you have a big dojo and bigger ego, it is not likely that you will want to try. Those with an invested interest in maintaining their position are more concerned with that than the other option.

    It's hard enough to get things right all the time, even some of the Shihan get corrected by Hatsumi sensei on mistakes they're making, so it's hard to imagine things really trickling down.
     
  14. ceyeb0rg

    ceyeb0rg Valued Member

    I'm not sure if I should post here or start a new thread, but I just wanna make an update on my training and get some extra tips for myself as well as other beginners.
    I attended a few classes with this teacher I told you guys about in the original post and I'm still convinced he's legit.
    The thing is, he never says anything about body conditioning/workout/exercise, which I find odd since the guy is ex-military. When I asked him about it, he just told me to do pushups and some hiking (which I do everyday with my 2 dogs).
    I understand ninjutsu techniques tend to use your body/weight as a whole so you don't need to pack a ton of muscles for the punches/kicks/throws to be effective, but I'm still looking to achieve physical health/fitness through training.

    My question is this : Aside from technique practice, what kind of workout/exercise do you guys do to condition your body in order to perfect your art? What are your routine, eating habits, activities outside the dojo? How do you prepare yourself before a class, what kind of stretching, breathing techniques, relaxation, etc.?

    I've been through 2 of Hatsumi's books already and he never said anything about body conditioning either. There is this one called "The Grandmaster's Book of Ninja Training" in which he briefly says that Takamatsu Sensei had a really hard training routine compared to what ninjas do nowadays, without explaining much. I'm trying to get into this, I think it could be interesting and useful to talk about here.

    EDIT : Sorry for bringing this thread back up, on second thought I'll start a new one exclusively for body conditioning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  15. garth

    garth Valued Member

    I think the question is...

    Do you want to get fit or learn martial arts?

    And whilst the two are of course interconnected, I think a lot of instructors (Including myself) concentrate more on the martial arts as that is what people come to learn.

    Sure in the art we have stretching, cardio, strength building but for me this is what I call homework. Its down to the individual student to get fit.

    Also and this is key, Holding a black belt in martial arts and calling yourself an instructor does not make you a fitness instructor. I always advise people to join a licenced gym, with qualified coaches who can design a fitness package for you.
     
  16. ceyeb0rg

    ceyeb0rg Valued Member

    I understand what you're saying and this is why I came here with my question instead of sweating my teacher too much about it. Also I'm not going to spend a ton of money on a gym membership or personal fitness instructor & stuff.
     
  17. MouzalinaMahfud

    MouzalinaMahfud Valued Member

    is Ninjutsu using kind of techniques as qi gong, chakra or something like that ?
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    unfortunately often free advice is worth exactly that, nothing.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    no.
     
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    ceyeB0rg posted

    Go for a long walk, do some press-ups, sit-ups, run, stretch, none of that costs money.
     

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