Ilustrisimo & Villabrille: KALI, Bantayan & the Pulahanes

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by onpoint, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    In an interview with GM Largusa that appeared in the July 2003 issue of "Filipino Martial Arts", Mr. Largusa himself claimed:

    "Kali is the ancient form of the martial arts of Indonesia and the Philippines."

    When asked how much influence the Spanish had on the development of FMA, Largusa replied:

    "Culturally, the Spanish had a lot of influence. As far as martial arts, and kali in particular, not that much. Please note I'm talking about kali. In other methods, such as arnis and escrima, they did have more influence. Kali was already developed when they arrived,

    and if you look at the different methods of fighting and training you'll see that the Spaniards were mainly using what we call the small circle. Kali is based on the simultaneous use of the small and big circle.

    The Spaniards had big problems with the kali men. The kali fighters used to move their weapons into the big circle, which completely surprised the opponent--

    since the Spanish had never seen an attack or defense from there--and placed them in a vulnerable position. This gave the kali fighter more than enough time to the small circle and finish the opponent."

    Questions:

    1. Do you practice the small and big circles? What exactly are these circles?

    2. Do others who espouse Kali employ these circles or is it only specific to Mr. Villabrille?

    3. Mr. Villabrille credits both his uncle from Bantayan, Cebu (they were relatives with the Ilustrisimos) and a blind Pulahan (root word: red, a cult-like, millenarian movement spanning the Visayas) woman in Samar.
    Where is Mr. Largusa from in the Philippines?

    4. Did the word Kali as used by the Villabrille-Largusa group originate from the Pulahans or from Mr. Largusa?

    5. How much similarities are there in Villabrille's and Ilustrisimo's arts, ie. movements and in names?
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    As a rule, essentially recreating a thread closed by a mod previously is a violation of the terms of service. I'm going to let this stand for now, but I'm watching it very closely. The moment that this turns into dueling agendas, it's going the way of the dodo.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I have no position politically, being that my own kali is almost entirely bastardized (albeit heavily I/L influenced) but thought these extracts from "The Fillipino Martial Arts" (1980) might be germaine
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    part 2....
     

    Attached Files:

  5. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Thanks, Hannibal, I have a better understanding of what these small and big circles are now. Although, it doesn't seem to be specific to Kali nor to Villabrille, IMHO. Is this fair?
     
  6. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Here's Tatang:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsFpy6IjE3k"]Tatang Ilustrisimo demonstration - YouTube[/ame]
     
  7. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Where in those pages are the small and big circles discussed or shown?
     
  8. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Right above the drawing of a circle, Tim, that's the small circle. If that's the small circle it's not too difficult to imagine what the big circle entails. Hannibal has the last word on the circles.;)

    Here's a better visual:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_25Uy2sMBU"]Kali-Lontayao-0042.mp4 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It is by no means an exclusive concept at all - as often as not it is only a specific label that differs (a bit like the numbering of strikes)

    I too have had the Kali/Escrima/Arnis debate many times and my answer is always the same as the one Dan Inosanto gives: "I call it that because my teacher did"
     
  10. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Totally agree, Hannibal.

    What others would call Largo, Medio, Corto. Only most don't fetishizes the circle concept, twirling and making circuitous movements for the sake of making circles, when shorter ones are more effective, half-circles are just as cool :rolleyes:.





    I can absolutely respect that sentiment, as oppose to assuming a name your teacher didn't use at all.

    As a tangent but related topic, did Manong Juan LaCosta originally use the term Kali or was he part of the mass exodus to this term in the 70s? Similar to the way Tatang and many others were encouraged or felt compelled to use the word Kali.

    'Nong Regino Ilustrisimo was also from the Stockton area, I would say most similar to 'Nong Juan LaCoste's movements, here's two videos:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2yU1XJggxE"]Escrima Grandmaster Regino Elustrisimo/Ilustrisimo Stories as told by his grandson Sam - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Krh9oZZGIQ"]GM Regino Ilustrisimo (Longer Version) Super 8 Demo - YouTube[/ame]
     
  11. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Let's presume I have a very poor imagination. Please explain which drawn circle you're referring to (including page number), what exactly is above it, and how you surmise that it's the big one or the small one.


    Tim
     
  12. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    "The Kali people often use the circle to organize their hand and foot movements." Start there.

    Unless Mr. Largusa is talking about more arkane, mystical circles in his 2003 interview, I'm assuming it's a range thang. Hannibal seems to have confirmed this as well. And it's not Villabrille-Largusa specific.

    What do you think the big and small circles are, Tim? Do you at Garimot do something similar?
     
  13. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    What I do is to attempt to understand without assumption.
     
  14. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Tim, you can see the drawn small and big circles pictured on the floor there. What else could it be?
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Its the quote -

     
  16. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Tim,

    Since youre our resident Spanish fencing expert here, can you speak of why Mr. Largusa say this about the Spanish? And has it any merit?

    1. Spaniards were mainly using what we call the small circle. Kali is based on the simultaneous use of the small and big circle.

    2. The Spaniards had big problems with the kali men. The kali fighters used to move their weapons into the big circle, which completely surprised the opponent--

    3. since the Spanish had never seen an attack or defense from there--and placed them in a vulnerable position.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I have to say that I find GM Largusa's comments a bit awry; I can't see why any European swordsman would have difficulty adjusting, and to be honest I doubt he has had much exposure to HEMA with which to make such a statement
     
  18. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I'm assuming he has zero knowledge of Spanish fencing. Similar to little knowledge of Filipino history. And doubt 'Nong Floro Villabrille spoke about the Spaniards at length or in as much detail--he'd have probably been more ****ed off at the Japanese and/or Americans, having personal encounters with them.

    The 70s was a crazy time in San Fran, and I think Mr. Largusa's statements reflect that time and place more so than reality in the Philippines or 'Nong Floro Villabrille's take on Filipino history. It was the blame your colonizers decade.

    Everything related to history espoused by Largusa becomes dubious.

    With that said, it's safe to assume the Largo, Medio, Corto relation to the big and small circles above, the question now is,

    1. Did Villabrille come up with the circles or are these Largusa's?

    2. Did Villabrille call it Kali or did Largusa?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgqqmhPz9pg"]Tribute to GM Ben Largusa of Villabrille-Largusa Kali - YouTube[/ame]
     
  19. HarryF

    HarryF Malued Vember

    Hate to sound rude, but am I missing something here? As interesting as history is, why does this matter?
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    IIR recall GM Villabrille referred to his training with his father as Escrima and his training with "Princess Josephine" as Kali and he blended the two. GM Largusa was the one most prominent in calling it Kali

    It is not unusual for people to have the wring history about their art. Ask any Wing Chun man and they will pretty much insist is was founded by a Nun, despite the entire lack of ANY evidence to this effect
     

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