Illusive Puglism

Discussion in 'MMA' started by ANGELSGYMSINGH, Mar 2, 2010.


    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    What is a strikers appoach to MMA? Well there are four basic situations that a MMA combatant can find themselves employing a striking tactic: Standup, Clinching, Takedown and Ground. Cung Le, Anderson Silva, Lyota Machida have formal striking backrounds in Kung Fu, Muay Thai and Karate. All three of these approaches must still deal with the situations mentioned above. Although all of these champions have grappling training their primary MO against grapplers is to knock them out; furthermore, as professionals few of them in their prime against top-grade competition have spent alot of time on the ground. There are 2 reasons why that separate these strikers from others without formal traditional training (outside of cardio-core- flexibility conditioning) they practice alot of form and they practice alot of applying form their sparring.

    These two general areas of traditional training teaches them a Sun Tzu, Lao Tzo maxim: Know yourself and know your enemy and win everythime in battle. To know ones self one practices many forms and to know others one fights many styles. When these fighters are observed it is almost like the fights were coreographed. They are illusive in defenses that are savage and intimidating and offenses that are calculated and deliberate. Even in transition from one posture to the other they are rooted, relaxed, explosive and accurate.

    From rooting they are found hard to takedown and they hit very hard. From relaxation they reflex action appears effortless. From explosiveness they sometimes freeze or get delayed reactions from opposition and from accuracy they make such reactions, or lack thereof, very painful. Not all but many opponents of these fighters find their sense of offense and defense impudent and ineffective.

    Do we as Fighters know that shadow boxing is a modern term for form practice; moreover, that the way we shadowbox is the way we will spar or fight? Most one on one battles could end up in a grappling situation that results on a clinch, takedown or ground situation. For the Striker the ability to cause damage at a distance or close-up is essential to controlling initiative. Ones form should do two things in sparring application: Uproot stance (Unbalance) and destroy fighting posture (Structure). Good grappling unbalances or takes the root or base of a fighter's stance: Takes away the houses structure. Good striking destroys the structure or (offensive/defensive) posture of an opponent which means calm mind, breathing, agility, intrinsic strength and finally fighting spirit is dissapated. Does our form work teach us this and moreover if it does do we integrate this in our sparring drills?

    There are 8 strategies and six directions of movement while appling these strategies that Masters Le, Machida and Silva have mastered:

    1. They can unbalance an opponent and strike during the process

    2. They can make an opponent miss and hit them when they do

    3. They can press an opponent off of them when in a clinch

    4. They can bounce out an opponent through pushing from a clinch

    5. They can seemingly split an opponents guard

    6. They can seemingly throw an opponent to the ground while maintaining balance.

    7. They can continuously elbow and knee an opponent after applying any of the above six strategies

    8. They can use their shoulder and back to strike and pound an opponent senseless.

    9-14. They can do all of these things while moving forward/back, left/right, up/down and round-left/round-right.

    What do you think? Can we apply these skills in our own training regimines? Are they worth incorporating?
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2010
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    yes, yes, yes!!

    a small thing - i think you noted 8 directions there at the end. by round left/ round right, do you mean the cardinals (diagonal directions) or something else ?

    I think I recognise the model tho' :cool:

    nice write up and interesting stuff.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member


    Thanks Cloudz... Yes you do but you also bring something to my attention that has been told to me: This stuff is Tai Chi but it ain't chinese anymore.

    When the Western Striking Arts of boxing and kickboxing (Muay Thai Rules or full contact) are added to the trinity of internal arts (Tai Chi, Bagua, Wing Chun or Xingyi) you have your 8 directions and actually 16 strategies. Current traditions in the east don't formally integrate these internal styles even after their 20th century original integration in the Sun Style of TJQ.

    Western Tai Chi Ch'uan does this even as, until now, it had not been articulated in prose, only in application anf demonstrative form. The training is murder dude let me tell you and my fighters like and hate it at the same time.... But they are learning to sink which means they are becoming immovable by their peers. They are sunk through transitions and they are moving in all of these directions while hitting. When they hit from this weighted posture they hit very very hard.

    When MMA Fighters learn form they are awesome and fearsome creatures, especially if this form is steeped in an Internal Martial Art tradition. Asian traditional and lineage masters know this which makes one realize how quite they are on the subject even as they are rushing to produce fighters from their stable to match these awesome Western Warriors. And if they are not rushing then they should be because we in the West are learning without an Eastern Leash... we may not come home when called... ya know!!!!.... Give the MMA Fighter practical and applicable Form and Strategy traditions from the ancient fighting masters of the east and west (Tai Chi and Pankration, Form and Technique) and do so through the trail and error interpretation of a Western Perspective: Then we own it!!!. This is the task of Angel's Gym staff and curriculum. Through win and loss we will cultivate a very Western Tradition of Form and Fighting and in the greatest MA venue we will demonstrate it... the MMA Arena.... I thank you so much for your support bro....

    I wanted to tell you that I and the gym just got accepted in the American Tai Chi and Qigong Association and the style is now accepted by this esteemed organization. The EFC has also brought Angel's Gym into its stable of Gyms. The fourth article concerning the last four of the first eight strategies comes out in spring in the Jade Dragon. I can send you an early copy if you like.... The book should be released at the end of the month and it looks pretty good.... I go to the Battle of Detroit as a guest celebrity on the 13th... if I do get there and demonstrate or speak and demonstrate I will fill you in.... Im at the Chin Woo event in Dallas in June... Book signings... Booksignings... lol... When are we gonna meet dude.... I will get to the UK maybe by the end of the summer.... Are you there?.... G

    Oh... I wanted to thank that Dr. Stretch guy for setting me straight with my stretching routine... The guy is awesome and my curriculum has been adjusted... for you reading let the guy know.... and please read that article thread which os in MAP... it will serve you well... Sat Sri Akal
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Thanks G, I am indeed in London and it would be a great pleasure to welcome you to my humble training space. i would very much look forward to sharing ideas and training together.

    great to hear things are rolling along nicely and the continued success of your competitors. i wish them and you all the best in your coming efforts. great news on your acceptance to the org.

    Looking forward to the book my man. I'm easy though, don't want to put you out - you sound as though you're gonna be hitting a busy patch. If its going to be available to order online, I'll do that when things are up and running. Like I say, I'm easy and appreciate the offer.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member


    About the hard part I forgot to tell you about. I am about to study Sun Tai Chi and TCM under Grandmaster & Dr Stier. Its time to become a serious student again so I can produce a better curriculum of preventive maintenance for the MMA Fighter. I think I am gonna start my doctoral work on the subject after I get some investors into the gym and thats the reason for joining the orgs. These fighters deserve to really have someone producing stuff like that so they really become artists even if they are not famous fighters.
    Thats why Im coming your way. The size of your spirit is felt all the way here. You ar unique but the source of that power is far reaching and shared by several others that I have met. A Jr. Mead is also a kindred spirit with you and lives in the UK. He gave me a song that is very rare. I want to share it with you so please give me an email address to send it too.

    Oh and tell me more about your style of fighting and training? How does your style integrate in the MMA SCENE. and if you are not a fight bum businessman like me what do you do for the cashhhhh... lol?

    Later and hello to all my MMA Bros and Sis's....
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Unfortunately the ancient form work has limitation on this. Most of the forms are striking base which has little locking and throwing integration in it. Also the SC form work are throwing base which has little kicking and punching integration in it. In order to achieve the true kick, punch, lock, throw integration, we have to create new drills in our generation. We just cannot depend on the ancient form work that passed down to us.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  7. pmosiun

    pmosiun Valued Member

    Wow, so many stuff to read. To be honest to the OP, Cung le when he kicks is very tae kwon do, sanshou does not have the kicks that he always use. Anderson silva is more boxing than muay thai, if you want to see muay thai in mma, shogun is probably a good bet.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Hi John and PMOSIUN, thanks for participating in the thread.

    In SC I can see your point John. I am also aware that you are part of a modern effort to evolve that traditional system of combat. In my traditional system, Yang Style Tai Chi, we have at least two modern Chinese Masters who interpreted ancient forms and wisdom into terribly fearsome combative Skill: Yang Shou Hou (See Bottom Note) and Sun Lu-tang.

    Before I go on I must answer a really relevent question for my MMA Bro's and Sis's: Why should an MMA practitioner study an Internal Martial Art as oppose to an external one. Thanks to Cung Li, Lyota Machida and Anderson Silva, San Shou, Karate and Muay Thai Boxing are well recieved disciplines in the MMA community. These are external disciplines that become internal after years of training but their practitioners are either inherently athletic or the have become so after brutal and savage self-development sometimes at the cost of health and welfare in older age. Tai Chi Ch'uan begins the other way around and is excellent for MMA practitioners whose athleticism is not as prodigious as their competition; moreover, it begins by discovering the power of submission, yielding and neutralizing athletic prowess until the cofidence in that prowess is dissapated and the natural advantages mad more equal. Tai Chi practitioners become very very savage and harden when this power is harnessed through good Kung Fu as is depicted through the biography of Yang Shou Hou. I have experienced this and my students have experienced this... almost going crazy with power after the intent of the opponent has been neutralized and the lost puppy look on the face of an opponent who was formally so aggressive now breeds contempt and the feeling of irradication.... Don't worry I am on a leash//// as are my students... Ass whuppins enough to help us reach that state of being and the continued search for opponents capable of beating us down in training and competition keeps the leash on and the respect for fellow Artists firmly at the forefront of our thoughts....

    In this context, for all of you who are MMA Practitioners and are not aware that formal Tai Chi training is very effective if integrated into Western Boxing, Kickboxing and Grappling please visit and enjoy the show... ah.. and if you would like to know more about the curriculum integration the book, "The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan: The Supreme Ultimate and Sweet Science of Boxing with 10 Limbs" will be released in April 2010. After writting the book I now realize through blogging that I did not give alot of history because it is really a HOW-TO Book. I was too busy proving effectiveness in competition so that the integration warrented a book even being worth writing. Beyond the publisher's acceptance of the Book that may still be true afte the public reads it... lol. But now back to the blogging...

    The first Master mentioned, according to historic observation was serious striker with Kung Fu so strong he maintained a dynamic (High and low postures), small frame in all three forms. I have found the necessity to have the same dynamic in Western Tai Chi Ch'uan form but as I am becoming more structured, rooted, relaxed and sunk my frame is becoming smaller. I am told that this is the result of Kung Fu (hard work) so I regard it as a good indicator.

    If I had learned from this lineage I probably would not have deviated so much from Yang Chang Fu interpretation which, for me, lacked a combat intensity capable of dealing with the external effectiveness of Western Boxing, Kickboxing and Grappling. I had not been exposed to or trained in Sanda or SC. After observing Liu Xi Wen, a Yang Shou Hou lineage Master, in a Small Frame Form presentation and then see him apply this form in a Pushhands demonstration, it is clear to the trained eye that very little modification would be necessary to one who knew the whole system and trained against an MMA Fighter. However, I may be giving the system more credit than it is due, still it has my respect and I train hard for the day that I may have to cross hands with such a powerfully trained warrior. I figure if I do and he/she realizes that I have they may want to teach me more rather than beat me up... lol.

    The original Sun Style incorporates Yang Style Tai Chi Ch'uan, Baguazhou and Xingyi into its forms. My Master is of this lineage and as my bagua and xingyi traditional training is weak my Kung Fu should get stronger with the incorporation of these disciplines into my forms training.

    What these two Chinese Masters have interpreted for us from the Ancient forms are how to harness, through arduous Kung Fu (hard work), the basic energies of internal martial arts and to appreciate the power applied Taijitu strategies in body mechanics, mental attitude, combative encounters and overall health. They also give us the foundation for preferring to remain standing in a no-holds-barred combative match when equal peers engage each other. But in the West we must search hard for the training form to accomplish this feat. Perhaps the facts can be found in Greek combative history.

    Our modern interpretation of Greek Pankration is also steeped in ancient tradition but the forms are lost to all but the most researched and dilligent. The coreographers of the movie Troy are the most notable Martial Artists who give us some possibilities of the capabilities of the Greek Warrior through the exploits of Achillies. In the West we have salvaged through recorded Greek accounts of great Olympians as far back as 648 BC, the taxtics and techniques of alledgedly unbeatable Illusive Pugilists namely Arrhichion, Dioxippus, Polydamas of Skotoussa and Theagenes. From the mythical ancestry of Herecles and Theseus these warriors who integrated, what we in modernity call, Boxing, Kickboxing and Wrestling give the Modern Western Warrior the foundation and legitimacy of no-holds combative skills that is truely fearsome. But what is very interesting is that the forms that teach how they became so prodigious is missing even as these tactics and techniques and even some strategies have survived. The fall of Rome probably had something to do with it.

    Still after researching the biographes of some of the warriors mentioned it seems that the observer of their exploits and the study of the rules of their competitions there are indications that these fighters had knowledge of Yin and Yang and the philosophies of Lao. The exploits of Alexander the Great, Merchant Trade and the application of a slave class produced in part by conquering peoples would have facilitated such knowledge. Pankration flourished through its transference from Greek to Roman culture until well into the beginning of Byzantium Rome. Perhaps the West and East melded Tatics and Strategy in those times concerning unarmed and single combat.

    Perhaps what we are discussing and doing now in modern times is a recreation, due to the volitile and interconnected world we live in at present, of ancient civilization. Perhaps what and how we inegrate now is what and how things were integrated then but on a larger scale.

    I have read that, although knowledge of grappling was essential, the idea of going to the ground in ancient Pankration was discouraged when combatants were of high-level but equal skill. So mostly, Pankration Warriors were Strikers even as the Pankration situations, Ano for standing and Kato for Ground, were classified which indicates differences in training regimines. A wikipedia source is necessary here:

    Remaining standing versus going to the ground
    The decision to remain standing or go to the ground obviously depended on the relative strengths of the athlete, and differed between anō and katō pankration. However, there are indications that staying on one's feet was generally considered a positive thing, while touching the knee(s) to the ground or being put to the ground was overall considered disadvantageous. In fact, in antiquity as today, falling to one's knee(s) was a metaphor for coming to a disadvantage and putting oneself at risk of losing the fight, as argued persuasively by Michael B. Poliakoff.,[10]

    This factoid is an interesting point when the student of the recent evolution of MMA has begun to exemplify the same conclusions as our ancient ancestors. Tai Chi strategies like the ones mentioned above are now becoming more of an attractive model to study, if not for the Eastern tactics (style) then for the application of strategy to the efficiency of Western (Styles) tactics of Boxing, Kickboxing and Grappling. Lets just say for cultural reasons of familiarzation... lol...

    Still how training was conducted in Pankration, especially concerning an internal Martial Art Slant and the forms necessary to reach the level of skill necessary to fight as the ancient Pankrationists did has eluded me. Perhaps I need more study of Greek and Roman literature and ceramic art; however, it is clear at present that the classics of combative Taijitu knowledge is available and applicable to the current vacuum of Form training in modern Pankration which we call MMA Competition. I will keep researching the western sources and wonder if you all will do the same given the thread.

    Now as far as the styles associated with the example fighters that I mentioned, you may be correct in your observations but of course I was referring to their formal training as you are referring to their performances. I think there is room for exploration concerning your point but with the preferences to style and example that you mention I don't recall those fighters winning so many matches so convinceingly. Maybe this is because I am ignorant of their overall records in comparison to the fighters that I am familiar with. I will research these fighters. Thank you bro...

    Please comment on my post as I welcome applied, researched correction and experienced opinionated critique based on such knowledge.

    Note: Yang Shao-hou
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is a Chinese name; the family name is Yang.
    This article contains Chinese text. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols instead of Chinese characters.

    Yang Shaohou 楊少侯Yang Shaohou simplified Chinese: 杨少侯; traditional Chinese: 楊少侯; pinyin: Yáng Shǎohóu) (1862-1930) along with Yang Chengfu 楊澄甫 (1883-1936) represent the third generation of Yang family Taijiquan 楊氏太極拳.

    At birth he was named Yang Zhaoxiong and was later named Mengxiang, and then Shaohou, commonly known as "Mr. Big".

    Although Yang Shaohou studied gongfu with his father Yang Jianhou 楊健候 (1839–1917), it is said that he mainly learned from his uncle Yang Banhou 楊班侯 (1837-1890).

    Likely influenced by his uncle's teaching style, Yang Shaohou was also known to have had a very forceful nature, and both of these masters are considered to have been very demanding teachers; only interested in teaching those that could stand their tough training regimes.

    In the early years he taught the 'middle fame' that was developed by his father, but later began developing his own signature style likely developed from the techniques taught to him by his uncle. This form or style was referred to as 'small circle'. This was characterized by high and low postures with small movements done in a sometimes slow and sometimes sudden manner. His fajin was hard and crisp, accompanied by sudden sounds. Master Yang Jun describes him in this way "The spirit from his eyes would shoot out in all directions, flashing like lightning. Combined with a sneer, a sinister laugh, and the sounds of "Heng!" and "Ha!", his imposing manner was quite threatening."

    During practice with his students, Yang Shaohou was not known for pulling his punches and subsequently few were able to complete the full course of training and become disciples. After Yang Shaohou's death a few famous masters claimed to have studied diligently with him, but these claims are likely to be spurious.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member


    Sun studied old Wu,or Hao style,not Yang.Where did you get this??? You linked Wiki-read it.It's correct in this matter.

    as to this-"During practice with his students, Yang Shaohou was not known for pulling his punches and subsequently few were able to complete the full course of training and become disciples. After Yang Shaohou's death a few famous masters claimed to have studied diligently with him, but these claims are likely to be spurious."

    A common tale.This is basically politically motivated Yang family propoganda,not that S-h was the easiest guy to train with-but many teachers were harsh on their students.Lu-ch'an's supposed treatment of his sons comes to mind.

    While Shao-hou didn't go in for the mass spreading and simplification of TCC his brother did,he certainly had students who stuck around-example being Wu,Tu-nan,who after 8 years of study w/Wu,C-c was sent for "finishing school" to Shao-hou,w/whom he studied for 4 years- tho' he claimed all the furniture in the hall they used in his family's house ended up broken.

    "After observing Liu Xi Wen, a Yang Shou Hou lineage Master, in a Small Frame Form presentation...."

    You're somewhat contradicting your statement that such claims are likely to be spurious.

    You must understand that after Shao-hou's death the family demanded of his students they bend the knee to Cheng-fu and become inscribed as his students-some did,but many refused-as they felt it was a betrayal of their teacher,and many felt Cheng-fu couldn't carry his brother's jockstrap,as the ancient western boxing saying goes.

    Everybody wants control and standardization,as long as it's their standardization-there was criticism of the (new) Wu practitioners commonly referred to as the Northern Wu(such as Wang,Pei-shang's circle) by Wu,C-c's daughter,Ma's wife ,because they did not feel the need to follow the standardization that Ma's circle wanted.Funny,as Ma once said when he was young they just called it T'ai Chi and didn't concern themselves w/"styles".

    I'm not asking you to believe me about this political garbage, look it up.


    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply El Medico

    Ok. I will recheck my facts onm the Tai Chi issue real fast bro.... Thanks

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Hey bro,

    I did the check. For the Sun issue you are correct concerning his initial training or form. As far as the evolution of his form or pushhands work he leaned rather heavy with the Yang style, specifically Yang Shou Hou. Given the context of my post I guess I was swayed more towards the Yang influence of hos integration of Bagua and Xingyi into the Tai Chi mix. My point was the treatise application, being that form is the kung fu of nowing self and sparring or pushhands being the kung fu of knowing others as it pertained to Yang Shou Hou's reputation, not as a bad guy or political guy, but as a reputable fighter who used Tai Chi Ch'uan as a Fighting art... The other brother was not known for such skill when searching for references to the contrary. Given the thread I wished for an internal methodology of form to be introduced to MMA fighters who may not be the biggest, strongest or fastest after external training but have the mind and heart to even the odds with this very ancient and efficient fighting system.

    As for the provocation such a statement might have I think you should read the whole paragraph because it is pretty self-deprecating and jovial. I am basically saying that the methodlogy is suited for the people that read this thread and are not naturally stronger, bigger or faster than their peers given the same training and similar goals of success:

    If I had learned from this lineage I probably would not have deviated so much from Yang Chang Fu interpretation which, for me, lacked a combat intensity capable of dealing with the external effectiveness of Western Boxing, Kickboxing and Grappling. I had not been exposed to or trained in Sanda or SC. After observing Liu Xi Wen, a Yang Shou Hou lineage Master, in a Small Frame Form presentation and then see him apply this form in a Pushhands demonstration, it is clear to the trained eye that very little modification would be necessary to one who knew the whole system and trained against an MMA Fighter. However, I may be giving the system more credit than it is due, still it has my respect and I train hard for the day that I may have to cross hands with such a powerfully trained warrior. I figure if I do and he/she realizes that I have they may want to teach me more rather than beat me up... lol.

    As for my personal experiences, I am only going by what I have researched and practiced as I was a Yang student of a style made by the latter brother. I needed to evolve it to meet my fighting needs. As I was getting better at my evolved style my frame was getting smaller because I was mastering sung, my postures dynamically high and low because my relaxation and sung were working in tandem and movement circular/small with significant fa chin because I was learning to apply the form against good strikers. My Master is a Sun lineage practitioner who had noticed this about my growth in Tai Chi presentation and told me the Yang Brother story you spoke of but with alittle more info that I have since been able to coorborate. I kinda feel the Shou Hou story because I am a draconian basterd when training myself and others and my gym has that reputation that does not normally go with an established Tai Chi School. Hoever, the mix is not normally done with the goals of fighting in the MMA Community either... so I guess Im reasonably appropriate.... lol

    Thanks for the response Bro. Your knowledge of the subject is noteworthy. I wold be interested in your application of IMA with other styles of combat especially if they are MMA EXPERIENCES..... G
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Nice one, I'll PM you my email. I have something nice to share with you also - a tai chi chuan quanpou (boxing manual) that i have a copy of. It comes from Wu Menxia who learnt tcc from Yang Ban Hou. It's quite different from the classics as it focuses much more on practical combat tactics, strategies etc.

    lol, I work in a family business, for my sins. The fashion industry..

    I've gravitated towards MMA, I'm a fan. i've always been a cross trainer really. And from boxing and san shou I've started to integrate a ground game from bjj.

    I started boxing a long long time ago (as a schoolboy), so that's always been with me, always will. I'm big on tcc as you know which I adapt to san shou style sparring/fighting. And I cross train some bjj. I spar in a number of different formats. boxing, san shou, mma, stand up grappling, sub grappling(ground only) and mixed grappling. I'm a fan of the arts of Chinese wrestling and sambo and like to train and integrate some their grappling techniques if and when i can.

    In the past I've trained in some bagua, hsingi, aikijutsu, kenjutsu, pak mei (looong time ago..), yi chuan and still keep up some elements from a few of these (the chinese IMA's), though i can't be religious about it, my main thing re. IMA is tcc.. Everything else for me now is really a supplement to that core art. Style per se is not much of an issue to me, as in the boundaries for me are not real - I'm really more looking at principles, training methods and techniques that 'work for me' so to speak. I don't want to have any style boundaries.

    Currently I'm looking at studying a bit of Sam Chins I Liq Chuan system and see what I can integrate from it. I've had about 8 years in tcc mostly with Yang style and Wu. This year I also plan to check out the rare style of Wu-Hao. Which is the style that Sun Lu Tangs tai chi comes from tht you'll be studying with Doc.

    Good times :cool:
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hey G, in regards the pankaration.. Have you looked at the work of Jim Arvanitis ?

    I know some folks are a bit sceptical of his work as in its authenticity and exactly the origins of his research etc.

    I have some interest as I am of Greek origin myself, but it has been a while since I looked into it. I know for example that there is a org in Greece that has mapped together a training program based on what they could research and have filled in missing peices. They also include certain rituals as I recall. You may have seen the episode of human weapon, when the guys trained and fought with this group in Greece.

    As to philosphical concepts, I doubt they needed to bprrow from Eatern sources, though of course we can't know for sure. Greece had it own element theory and esoteric philosophy/ spiritualism to draw from. A lot of the spiritual systems of the world have concepts that aren't too dissimilar when you look under thes surface.

    As I recall (sorry can't tell you from which sources as I can't remember!), there was some 'form' practice in the system of training - possibly short forms of combinations perhaps ?

    Also it is said the concept of 'pnevma' was part of this ancient combat culture and practice. This translates to something like spirit. One could draw parallels with the Eastern concept of "qi" here or maybe shen..

    You probably know better about all this stuff than me.


    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    For Brother George

    Hey bro...
    Thanks for that information. Awesome that you are of that great culture. Now I know I gotta come see ya cause you guys know how to live as they say in my cultures "rightly'... lol...

    I think that the similarities thing has alot of weight bro... Even with my postulations about converging cultures in that Ancient Nexus I believe that Greeks would have put enough of their flavor into that knowledge that it would be very unique... They did kick the daffodils out of all comers for quite some time in that epoch.

    I have two videos for ya. The forms are called the Dance of Life and parts of it are in both videos. As it suppose to dislay all contrasts of the Western Tai Chi Ch'uan style it is small and large frame, every energy you can imagine even the "please finish this damn thing cause my thighs are killing me" energy... lol.... I know you will like the Pugilistic Form and Illusive Fighting video. The other is very asthetic but shows postures of the same form but later in its envelopment.

    If you like it then spread it. If you really like it then please go and rate it and comment on it....

    Please do not use asterisks to cover up foul language. As well please abide by the Terms of Service that you agreed to upon becoming a MAP member. Namely not using foul language on MAP which is a family oriented site.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2012
  15. Commander Nitro

    Commander Nitro Valued Member

    I'm new here and it's interesting to read all your post.
  16. ben moak

    ben moak Valued Member

    IRRELEVANT POST: alot of people fail to realize that mma is not kickboxing and bjj.
    mma is not a widely known form of martial arts yet your own combination of any form or any different forms of martial arts. you dont have to play by any ones rules (besides the common no eye gouging or nut kicks and stuff like that) but your own. you can take any strike from any MA you know and use it in your fight or use that strike combo'd with other strikes from other MA's. same with ground moves. alot of people fail to realize this and think that someone who isnt preforming "proper" ji jitsu is a bad fighter when in reality there form of the moves there using may work very effectively on there opponent. thats just my 2 cents on that matter.
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    its makes fights so predictable.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Hey nitro, I am sorry I was away for so long. I have been researching and evolving my Internal Boxing. I have some new insights to the evolving and cultivating ones Internal Boxing. I will be posting a new thread this week on this subject.... Hope to hear from ya.... G

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Legends Fighting Chmpionships: MMA in China

    Well, the argument that the West has equal or superior fighting techniques and training with comparison to the Easthas been settled with the Asian Promoted MMA Competition called "Legends Fighting Championships". Chinese "Traditionally Trained" Sanda Professionals seem to forget their roots or have turned them in for Western Pugilistic strategies and tactics. This is dissappointing as every traditionally trained Asian Warrior looked more like Pankrationists than Kung Fu eastern Kung Fu Adepts.

    Traditionalists in the West better hope this does not evolve Sanda or the traditional martial disciplines that feed into that fight rule system.... Effectiveness is the issue as traditionally trained Western MMA TOPLEVEL Professionals have been filmed displaying more refined and cultivated offenses and defenses then what I saw in three hours of competition... Very Eye opening stuff ....Seems Eastern and Western Traditionalists have some catchup with regard to applying form to function in competitive competition. It is obvious that the Asian Competitors have relooked their own traditional roots and thought that perhaps a justified integration was appropriate.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  20. Tarek M

    Tarek M New Member

    Thank you

    Thank you for this wonderful information

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