I'd like some karate-ka opinions on something I'm debating with myself....

I think it depends on distance to the target. If you throw a punch to someone close to you and keep your heel planted then maybe it does generate more power, but if you're taking a shot at someone further away then there will come a point in the technique where trying to keep your heel on the ground will actually inhibit the forward motion of the punch, so it won't hit as hard.

As for training for a "real fight" vs. a sport one - I really don't think there's much anyone can do to train perfectly for a real fight. I mean, what the hell is a real fight anyway? Let's say you threw all laws etc. out of the window and decided you were going to arrange absolute no holds barred fights to the death with no referees at all; then you could argue it's not real enough because the fights are pre-arranged. Let's say you decide you'll just go around starting fights with random people on the street; then you could argue that isn't real enough because you pick your own opponents and it only prepares you for situations where you are the aggressor. Let's say you put out an ad on TV saying anyone is free to attack you any time they want; you could argue that's not real enough because you've asked for it to happen and you'll be walking around on guard all the time. None of those are anything like the reality that any of us live. You simply cannot accurately recreate reality in training.

Going back to actual techniques, I don't think there's many situations at all where you could use an eye gouge or a groin strike/sack grab where you couldn't use a simple punch or kick. You can't really train live with eye gouges and groin strikes which means you're not going to be any better at them than your average street trouble maker who likes to fight dirty. You can, however train live with punches and kicks, so assuming you concentrate all your live training on those techniques the comparison between you and that dirty fighting street punk changes - you still remain equal at eye gouging and groin striking but your conventional (for lack of a better word) strikes are now FAR better than his as you've spent a lot more time practising them.

 

It is all a matter of compromise. The biggest difference between any type of sparring and a real fight is the pre-fight - ie the minutes or second before a fight where there is an argument of some kind or just an aggressive charge, or a sucker out of no-where. The next biggest difference is the lack of a stand-off such as you commonly see in sparring or certain rule sets of ring fights where people engage and then withdraw.

The solution you propose would be like the 'real fighting' that self defence is orientated, but not the type of training required - even though it would be a real fight. The reason being that by actively going out and picking the fight you are approaching it from the opposite mindset of the sort of fight that you might want to train for. You are being the person you want to train to fight against rather than being yourself.

There is only one solution that comes close to a real fight, and it is a compromise. You tog people up in body armour that doesn't restrict their mobility, you brief everyone on the scenario (eg bar, club, street) and then a small number of people on the attack pattern you want them to try and do against the person and the way you want them to try and sucker the other guy in - the shouting and swearing etc. You then set safety observers who can halt the procedings at any point in time and let the drill run. Is it a real fight? No? Is it closer to the dynamics of a out of training fight than any competition format? Yes. When the police practice riot training they do the same thing. They go into a hanger filled with fake buildings in gear against a crowd of 'actors' who charge them and throw bricks at them. They walk through petrol bombs.

We get good at what we practice for. The question is, with what level of compromise are you prepared to settle?

 

The intimidating pre-fight is something that could require getting used to, I grant you. However, sparring can be an intimidating experience anyway. As for sucker punches out of nowhere, that's nothing to do with your martial arts skill.

I've heard people make this argument a lot. The problem I have with it is that it fails to take into account why sport fighters fight the way they do. It's not because they don't know how to handle someone just rushing them - quite the contrary. It's because that tactic won't work against a more skilled opponent. That's why people like Tank Abbbot get spanked in MMA.

Not really. I want to be able to step up to the challenge when it arrives, that doesn't mean I'm going to go out looking for trouble.

I don't think that sounds more like an out of training fight at all. OK maybe it reflects the intimidation and swearing involved but it's not going to improve your fighting skill as well as sparring. Police training for riots are preparing themselves for a wholly different scenario, most streetfights don't involve legions of people hurling bricks at you. You don't wear body armour on the street and you won't get used to taking hits properly.

I think the training methodology you're suggesting is not so much a compromise as it is a misdirection of attention. I accept that there is a pre-fight stage that we might learn to deal with via de-escalation techniques or awareness training but to make that the primary focus at the expense of the physical fighting skills that sparring would undermine the purpose. The poo may not hit the fan as often, but you'll be less able to deal with it when it does.

 

Hey, I'm a karate guy. I studied JKD for a couple months, then hapkido for four or five months, had a course in self defense at college; and now I've found my first "real school". I've been studying isshinryu karate for...uh...6 or 7 months? I forgot how long.

Anyway, my opinions are:

1. I'm starting to believe that what makes you a good fighter is your passion to become a good fighter. I have yet to actually be in a fight; and although I do sometimes feel I won't ever be as good as the good fighters, I am confident that I can become like them.

2. I may not know a lot of techniques at the moment, but quantity isn't as good as quality.

3. Isshinryu karate rocks my socks.

 

Like you say: "[...]somebody with good basic skills can easily just add a poke in the eye to their repetoire[...]" I intended my earlier post.
Basic training should be done on small target, over and over again on the same target. This will help aiming. Now using a untraind poke using a handform that hasn't been trained on a heavybag, is dangerous, you'll likely end up screwing up your fingers.

Aiming on the forhead, as I used as a possible training aid, in my opinion is just as difficult to perform as the slightly lowering of the execution to the eyes. If you can pull it of to hit the forhead in training, you'll be able to strike the eye in a fight.
It's just the development of targeting. If your aiming and your technique sucks, your fighting will also.

There is the differance in training between the heavybag for developing techniques, and the execution of them in sparring.

 

I recommend playing Jenga using ippon nukite to poke the blocks out. We used to do it in the pub all the time. Great finger conditioning and target practice.

 

there is a Goju kai club in Newcastle and one in South Shields. I have just started going to the club in South Shields along side my kung fu.

 

Hang a piece of paper and try poking through it, this is great for speed and follow through.

 

It won't help conditioning for impact. There is too little resistance in paper.

 

This exercise isn't about impact it's about speed, crispness and depth.

 

Here you go:
http://www.ikga.org.uk/about/clubpages/jarrowss.htm
http://www.ikga.org.uk/about/clubpages/newcastle.htm

 

You hit the nail on the head, buddy.

 

There is no doubt that sparring can be an intimidating experience. But, it is a different type of intimidation because
1) You have made a choice to engage in it - that choice hasn't been imposed on you by surprise.
2) You have a clear idea of what you and the other person can and cannot do - you know that there are limits in place and you know that if things get too heavy then one or both of you can pull out and the sparring can be stopped by others.

Sucker punches are to do with your martial arts skill - because they do not come out of nowhere. All attacks have telegraphs, or as BTS say, pre-contact cues. If you learn to spot (and train to spot and move) pre-contact cues you have a chance of avoiding being hit by that sucker punch. That's one of the key factors of training in my system and one of the major factors in Blauer Tactical Systems (the drill is known as Emotional Climate Training). You build the skill set of recognising the telegraph and moving. So, if the information is being fed to your brain - instead of it being one of the many millions of bits that is filtered out - it gets priority and is processed. Obviously, if you can't see the attack (say for example it is completely behind you) then less skill is required as you will get hit, but what will come next into play is whether you have practised absorbing blows and responding from such positions. You may get knocked out, the fight may be over - but if you haven't trained for the possibility that you might still be in the game and able to do something - you'll find it harder to do something.

 

I'm not viewing this as a question of tactics, more as a matter of the nature of fights. In the competition arena the rule sets and the presumed competence of your opponent create a different dynamic which is more cautious. By contrast - in a less organised natural fight a person will generally only attack if he/she thinks he can take you down - hence the committed approach. That kind of attack, seemingly oblivious to the possibility of it failing or being hit, can often work very well against martial artists because they are not used to it. That is why when you look at normal fights they tend to go either AAAAA or ABBBB rather than ABABAB or ABBBAABAB etc. The latter are an unfortunate consequence of sparring. I'm not saying sparring is bad - it is good for timing and distance and for practicing techniques in a relatively unpressurised environment. It will prepare you for competitions against other opponents. I believe however that it is not the best method of preparation for the different nature of attacks needed for self defence.

 

The post I replied to said

, hence my comment.

Again this comes down to what you are working your fighting skills for - the arena or self defence. The two scenarios are different and the psychological pressure of each is different. I would say that the ability to control your mind and not go into shock or denial in a real fight is more important than the physical fighting techniques you know. Sparring can help towards this, but the intimidation of sparring with someone whom you know will stop or be stopped and whom you have agreed to fight is very different to the pressure of facing a fight when all you wanted was a quiet night out. Verbal abuse and intimidation makes a huge difference to the equation. I've had students of mine who could spar unable to lift their feet of the ground and execute a single move when people start shouting, and I've known a very competent 4th Dan who spars a great deal (and who enters winning teams into BUSA comps) find himself temporarily unable to move his feet due to the shock of the moment. Those people who saw the High Gear demo at the last Map Meet will appreciate how devastating the pre-fight can be. Some people will be able to deal with that whether they've had ma training or not, but there will be a majority in training who will not be able to handle it unless they have practiced experiencing it.

With regard to your comment on improving fight technique. I disagree, but I do recognise that I may be looking at a different fight technique. I'm looking to defend against headbutts, haymakers, sucker punches, pushes, tackles etc - not jabs, roundhouse kicks, front kicks etc. So I practice defending against full power attacks fo the same from people trying to land them. The body armour stops bones being broken - it doesn't stop you feeling pain, it doesn't stop you getting severely winded, and it won't stop you getting knocked out. It doesn't stop you moving normally. It is there so that the majority of techniques can be executed full power against the other person (incidentally that's why fighters like Randy Couture use it - check out the High Gear advert at tonyblauer.com and you'll see that in addition to the police and military a large number of mma guys use it) without leaving them unable to continue, after all we're not in this to injure or cripple ourselves.

 

I disagree with you on this one Timmy. In my opinion the physical skills you want to train for self defence are the defences against the types of attack that are likely to happen. Sparring works a large number of skills, but it usually teaches you to defend against controlled martial arts attacks - and while that is a good skill to have, I don't think it is as appropriate. But that's because I'm not training to fight in any competitions. When the proverbial poo hits the fan it is your mind and not your body that will determine whether you will be able to deal with it - all the physical skills in the world are useless if you cannot motivate yourself to use them. In extreme situations it is not how good you are at multiple fine motor techniques that will determine whether you weather situation, it is how good you are at a few gross motor skills that you will actually be able to employ. If you are interested in learning more about the nature of adrenaline and high heart rates on peformance and physiology I suggest you start (unless you already have them) by reading Grossman 'on Combat' and Siddle 'sharpening the warrior's edge'.


Apologies to OP and the rest of you for going off topic.