Iai in the Bujinkan by Hatsumi sensei

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Big Will, May 17, 2011.

  1. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    And yes..Well said Mark...

    And yes, I did. (Albeit Ayase, not Noda....I wanted to SEE it.. ;) ).

    (I also see "it" every year at the Ayase demonstration in November, although that's not quite "it" from what I've heard? Not sure what "that" is actually...Fun mostly...)
     
  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Weak? WTF.

    I didn't say he's too old. I asked until what age one should be pushed to ones limits, since you earlier said "This process involves surrounding yourself with men and women who WILL push you to be the best you can be".

    I am still waiting for a response.

    And I already said in this thread that Sôke doesn't always demonstrate correct form, timing or distance. In that particular scene, it wasn't a question of "oooh, will Someya be able to cut Sôke? Or will Sôke prevail and win?". He just showed something. That's it.

    [​IMG]

    And again weak? WTF is this kindergarten?

    Weaker, WTF Tae kwon do?

    I value my own practice very highly and do my best each and every day to progress in some way. If I could, I would have you fly over here, try my iai against you, and if I would fail I would practice even harder and push myself more so that next time I wouldn't fail. That's how much I value my practice. It means absolutely NOTHING to me whether or not someone is attacking Sôke correctly in Japan right now. He is not my teacher. And to me, he doesn't need to prove himself at all anymore because I have seen through his disciples what excellence exists in this art, and I know that one can reach it through correct and diligent practice.

    And again, for the record... HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE TRIES OR DOES NOT TRY RIGHT NOW?

    I did not put the video up :bang: I started this thread saying that Hatsumi sensei shows iai at the Gyokko Ryu Daikomyosai 2001, and then someone posted those clips which are not from that occasion.

    And no, I did not know what you were talking about and I haven't pretended that I did. If you still think I did, please explain where.

    But what does this have to do with the fact that I - and several others - pointed out that there are people who attack correctly, yet you still claim that no one does? Please explain.

    And several other opinions regarding this, and regarding why and how he did it the way he does it, have been presented.

    And I can show you literally hundreds of instances from videos where people punch IN THE AIR next to him. THAT'S what I call a bad attack. Yet you say his taijutsu is good? How come? "Because you have seen him demo some wonderful waza in those." So, in other words... what YOU have seen dictates what he is good at?

    Most people in the Bujinkan suck. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. That means people will give sucky attacks.

    I DID NOT LECTURE YOU ABOUT JAPANESE RULES REGARDING POLITENESS.

    Can you please point out to me and everyone else, especially yourself, where I lectured you about japanese rules regarding politeness?

    Great, I'm happy for you. Or what else are you expecting me to say? Should I write you a congrats card? Please explain.

    Nope. And you don't live here in Sweden, right? Glad we got the introductions over with.

    Good!!! :cool: So you have attacked Hatsumi sensei with full force? (Because that is what you are telling us all to do, while many of us are saying "yeah, we will" or "yeah, we do".) How did that go, and when was it? Please explain.

    Oh there must have been some kind of technical error on your computer screen which prevented you from seeing what I wrote and why I wrote it. Here it is again:

    You, Mr. Ben Sharples wrote:

    "The reason the problems exist is because no one is interested in making Hatsumi "work" anymore..Only in what he will give them if they push him up.....Which debilitates his technique, because he DOESN'T need that skill to NOT GET HIT anymore.... [---] .Hatsumi needs DECENT men to represent what he does in any positive way at all...And he has no one..."

    To make it easier to understand which parts are important, I put them in bold (yes, it is all in bold).

    This is what I wrote then:

    "You know NOTHING of his practice except for what is shown on the outside. What you do know is that Takamatsu Toshitsugu acknowledged him as successor and Sôke of nine schools, and the fact that you even breathe words about what he needs or doesn't need in his practice is completely disrespectful in my opinion to a man who has already proved himself in many ways and has more knowledge of classical japanese martial arts in his big toe than everyone in this thread has together."

    I assume it is crystal clear now that I did not find you disrespectful for asking why something was done. Right?

    I find you disrespectful for even breathing words about what Hatsumi Masaaki needs or doesn't need in his own practice , since he has already proved himself in many ways and has more knowledge of classical Japanese martial arts in his big toe than everyone in this thread has together.
     
  3. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    What do you think of the timing by Kacem in this clip at 00:11 seconds?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VYCcBvYhGA"]YouTube - ‪Dr. Kacem Zoughari - Weapons & Unarmed‬‏[/ame]

    It's not the same waza as in the video of Hatsumi, but it's still iai against a cut from daijôdan.

    (And I know it passes by briefly in the video, only one second, but it is the full movement from beginning to end.)
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    And this is the difference, imo.

    One of the main distinctions.
     
  5. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Damn, there's a certain flair to the way he moves. He is looks very good in front of the camera.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Hard due to how brief it is, not to mention I'm viewing it on a small screen, but it looks a little early on his part and his position at the end seems a bit unsafe, it seems like it relies on the cut ending where it does. If it was a more "full on" cut going right through then I think he'd get clocked regardless of if he gets the other guy.

    Like I said though I'm viewing on a small screen so might be missing something.

    Edit:

    Yep I slighty misinterpreted the cut sorry :D

    However it still seems to rely on that specific angle for the end position, that coupled with the timing could mean a squishy end if the other guy adjusts.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  7. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Actually I wasn't asking regarding the waza itself but rather of the timing of the draw. When looking at the clip in slow motion (can be done on youtube by pushing pause and play alternatively :p ), you can see that the uke initiates the movement and then Kacem draws.

    I was trying to illustrate what Ben said regarding how the draw should be done at the same time as the cut.
     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Ah viewing it on an iPod I'm afraid :D

    Like I said though there's something that to me seems a little early.

    What size weapon is he using there?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Another couple of things.

    It's a bit of a blur but it looks like his right hand is practically on the weapon anyway.

    He collapses his mid section as he draws, this seems to be to create the space to draw. Almost as if he is drawing the saya off the blade rather than the blade out of the saya.

    Uke seems a bit sloppy, imo.

    Again the size of his blade needs to be accounted for.

    The timing he uses should I feel be taking into account the above, so whilst on an initial glance things might look one way when you add the bits together you get a slightly different picture.

    Good? Bad? Effective or not? Hmm not sure but it's gutsy I'll give him that, also highly reliant on situation I'd say.


    Now I'm not necessarily making criticisms as such, well the one about uke is one I suppose, simply making observations.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I couldn't see that - it seemed edit on the clip started too late to determine who moved first to me.

    On a side note, I mentioned earlier that I was enjoying the debate and insight - however to Ben - if you expect to debate faults in our system and people that are close to many peoples hearts please keep an eye on your tone.

    If you don't then you will just flame things up and not get to your point.
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Actually thinking about it the way he drops and collapses is, imo, a good example for why you ensure your weapon is snug in the saya and why you'd look after it. Think about him doing it whilst wearing a kodachi too.

    Imagine doing some of the types of movement we see him do but with a blade that slides out the saya everytime any force is exerted on it i.e. leaning forward, whipping the hips etc.
     
  12. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Here you go
     

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  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    And part 2
     

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  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So a couple of points:

    The attacker cuts from too close, stepping beyond where he needs to. He also stops his blade early given where his opponent is
    If the attacker just cut down rather than stepping in it would be difficult to perform this waza I think

    I've been taught to do this waza a little differently from that shown by Kacem. That is to start further apart and respond by placing the knee further to the left and to keep your head low down with a straight spine. This is to ensure you're outside the cut, but also to make sure you evade a curved cut as well as a straight cut

    Also the distance that I've been taught is to end up outside the range of a quick cut back by your opponent in the instance where your cut to their leg fails. The position of your legs should facilitate a jump or natural stepping in again to cater for the situation of him continuing
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Just adding that in the broad I like what Kacem is doing so this isn't in anyway meant to be a cricism of him in general

    His focus on learning & perfecting the waza is great and if he gets more of the Buj to begin there then he's being a BIG HELP in my view
     
  16. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    But he can use childish tactics like putting "WEAK" after my statements, accuse me of things I did not do (lecturing him on Japanese rules regarding politeness), blatantly ignore what I write and then say that I have a lot of work ahead of me (which I do, but that's another issue) and first and foremost explain to the world what Hatsumi sensei needs to practice at almost 80 years of age? And I need to watch my tone?
     
  17. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Regarding the video - my bad as I did not look close enough ( :bang: ) It's not the full movement (like I thought I had put in).

    From the original cut of the video you can clearly see uke initiate the movement by shifting his weight, which makes Kacem initiate his. Hopefully this still photo can make it a little bit clearer.

    But sorry again as it's not the best example since the full movement is not in the video.
     

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  18. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    All of the above exist as well. The clip in the video is to demonstrate a certain specific movement and how it connects to other techniques. I just posted it regarding the timing that fifthchamber talked about.

    My point was, that even if Hatsumi sensei shows a certain timing (or lack thereof) in some cases, it doesn't necessarily mean that people don't practice with other timings.
     
  19. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    "The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes.
    My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration."
     
  20. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    "A man who is prepared to stand up for a cause will never and can never be a sneak or a spineless lickspittle. Anyone who is really serious about the preservation and furtherance of an institution will cling to it with the last fibre of his heard and will not be able to abandon it if evils of some sort appear in the institution."
     

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