So worst case is: You move early drawing your sword, moving to safety and cutting into the area where an attacker needs to be to get you Most likely your opponent will move back and start again Only now you are on even terms Best case: You catch him as he moves in or you get the timing that I've tried to explain (but don't feel that you buy into) and all is good As mentioned in a previous post I feel that Hatsumi often shows how a single waza should be practised with the 3 (or more) different timings. For me the elegance of the kata is their validity across a multitude of timings/situations/attacks
Hi I've found that videoing myself helps me enormously There's many things that I've learnt, but the "rust has crept in" and seeing myself from the outside really helps highlight these areas
That's not in dispute, Hatsumi was awarded the 9 schools, but Sato Kinbei was also awarded Gikan ryu - hence the not all of his eggs in 1 basket comment
No...worst case is, you try to draw and he stops the attempt by slicing your neck... Or, you manage to draw and he sees it, but he pulls back to allow time to think and re-evaluate the new position (both swords out)... Only if your opponent is an idiot would he continue to attack after he has seen you start the draw and step....Only then... Best case? Well, as I said above, best case would be that he actually IS a moron and tries to cut where you were in the vague hope that you (slip? catch yourself on a bramble? Moonwalk?) are only joking about drawing and moving and you find all the time in the world to able into him and draw and cut.... But the chances of that happening to anyone over the age of about 10 in pre-modern Japan would be......Fairly minute mate... Hatsumi may love to show the "three timings" often, however here, he shows one...And it's NOT one of the "three timings" at all..But a perversion of one of the rules you outlined based on the fallacy that the opponent WON'T cut him for trying to move before that cut is initiated... The difference IS there..With all due respect.
(Kobudo, thanks....I'm more or less aware of much of the problems with Takamatsu's lineage...He passed it down in varying degrees to several different men, and although Hatsumi makes the biggest song and dance about it, there are several holders of the schools out there, for sure..)
I would not dispute that Hatsumi sensei is human and fallible, of course. As for the whole "egg" issue, I would like to defer to someone with more knowledge than myself: "Among these documents, densho and makimono, each school has two to three densho and three to four makimono, but this isn’t a rule, some schools like Kukishinden ryu or Takagi Yoshin ryu can have more densho, as well as Koto ryu and Gikan ryu. On top of that, Takamatsu sensei did not write only that. The relationship that he had with his sole successor over the course of fifteen years, until the end of his life… during these fifteen years, he wrote many things that he transmitted and gave to Hatsumi sensei, this adds up to a lot. From what I’ve seen with respect to the nine schools, there are about a hundred manuscripts not including those small books where Takamatsu sensei explains to Hatsumi sensei how to realize the techniques. These small books are like technical chronicles, they are technical and historical explanations, and there are a great many of these. Add to this around two hundred densho and makimono on various subjects and disciplines related to ninjutsu and budo in general… there is quite a wealth of knowledge. They are structured and in addition to the densho, Hatsumi sensei received what is called jitsuden: or the real transmission. Before meeting Hatsumi sensei, Takamatsu sensei had met many people and was approached by many. Of course the nature of these relations was that of a person going to see a teacher twice a week to receive a certain knowledge." - Dr. Kacem Zoughari Of all the relationships that Takamatsu sensei had with his various students over the years, the only one that I can validate is the one that he built and maintained with the student whom he entrusted his traditions with....and the only one who, incidentally, actually showed up to his teacher's funeral. - Mark Spada
I'm not a historian or researcher, so I'm happy to go with the legal position agreed in court regarding Gikan Ryu, but accept other people have differing ideas that are also valid. Thanks
It’s difficult and time consuming to outline the scenarios in complete and rational ways and of course the full number of scenarios is infinite But I’ll try: 1 – You move before he does Because you’re cutting into the space in between you & the attacker (and into the open area under the sword) I don’t think it’s plausible that your attacker will be able to cut you immediately as per your worst case option above. Their most likely option is to hold back and reassess. Situation’s now improved for Hatsumi I think? 2 – You move after he’s committed, but before he moves This one’s been done to death already. We disagree that this is viable in a martial context – OK, but I hope you can at least agree with the science of there being a time delay between thought and action particularly when the action requires acceleration of the whole body mass? 3 – You move at the same time as him No issues here? 4 – You move last minute No issues here? 5 – You move too late Dead – all agreed I think This I think is your worst case option?
Jesus wept.... No one, Ben? Are you absolutely certain of this? Or do I really need to point out those actual students of Hatsumi sensei: men who have an established relationship with him going back forty plus years, who started learning from Hatsumi sensei when they were teenagers. The show only goes on as long as those gaijin who only wanted to see a show in the first place desire it to go on. I would not presume to know what Hatsumi sensei needs, personally. EDIT - When you watched the whole Human Weapon dog and pony show, did you notice the difference in nationality between the men standing in the background....and the two clowns who actually participated in it? - Mark Spada
Heya Mark.... I was speaking in general terms..Since I'd ALREADY opened the door to Hatsumi having people who CAN do the techniques in a previous post..Sorry not to toodle it out again..But quite honestly, I can't be arsed to help you see what I have written before mate..Read it again maybe? And no, in the Kenjutsu videos I have seen, I have not seen an attack that made Hatsumi work to move out of the way...No pressure at all...And (once again) I know that there may well be several reasons for this..But this happens so regularly that does seem to indicate a very strong pattern....With the possibility (again) that I'm just not being shown the videos of him starting a waza with stunning timing against an opponent who WOULD hit him if he DIDN'T....(And no, I'm not calling for that video, since I'll give you the doubt...I'm not trying to push this home..Simply out of respect for you, and some of the others here who DO know what they're talking about...But there are a LOT of morons in the clips out there..And Yoshida and Someya san are not helping with their weak attacks..) Dunc... Numbers 2, 3, 4 and 5 I agree with...(2 is hardest...Very much so, but I would HOPE that is what Hatsumi INTENDED to show...He just failed...Possibly because of Someya san, possibly because he is used to doing anything and making it seem "okay" to a majority, and possibly because I can't see the lessons/enbu where he DOES demo with this timing...), but number one is the fallacy... It's not possible against anyone but the worst trained swordsman EVER....Try it against a 2 month-in new Kendoka....He'll smack you...Moving first is NO option..The laws of fighting against anyone other than a moron would require that one be erased..It's NOT an option...If it was, you've already won, since your opponent does ANYTHING and you can just as easily dance around him with a safer waza...It's a fallacy....It IS NOT A RULE...Sorry...The rest, yes..I agree with you.. If THIS IS the waza that Hatsumi MEANT to show (if we accept that your "number 1" is a "practical method"), it would mean that at several points in a swordfighters battles in per-modern Japan, he started to draw against an opponent in Jodan and was SO successful in defeating them that he HAD to make that waza and ensure that he passed that method on....Does this really make sense to anyone here? Someone fought (not once, but several times, enough to SEE that it WORKED) using a technique where they moved in advance of an opponent in Jodan, and that move WAS NEVER stopped by a cut to a vital artery..Not once...It worked so often that IT HAD TO BE INCLUDED in the waza passed on....Really? This seems plausible to you? Please don't say yes...
So you are saying you need to be pushed to the far limits until what age... 80? 90? 100? There are several stories and first hand accounts of how Hatsumi sensei has taken care of challengers and attackers. He even had a period when he trained and studied all the material he received from Takamatsu sensei so intensively and hard that he became physically ill (as I've been told, could be wrong). On the Daikomyosai 2009 DVD you see Kan sensei talk about how he would strike at Sôke with everything he got and still be demolished. There are countless of first hand accounts of how brutal his training was. Do you really think he should or can practice the same way at 60 or 70 or 80 as when he was 30 or 40? To be honest, there is only one thing that is 100% fact in this thread. And that is that you, Mr. Ben Sharples, knows exactly NOTHING about Hatsumi sensei's own practice over the last decades. And that is exactly how much I and everyone else knows as well. You don't know what he needs or what he doesn't need at his current age. The only thing you do know, is what he lets you and everyone else (who doesn't have a close relationship with him - no matter the grade) know and see. And I mean this in the most respectful way. And you honestly think that a man of Hatsumi sensei's level does not notice that? Seriously? What's the problem then? What matters is that there is ONE, and even you claim that there are "some", indicating more than one. So that is more than enough already for an art such as this. Again, you honestly think he doesn't see that? Really? How do you know this? What do you know of his personal practice? And do I REALLY need to once again quote the people in this thread who talk about the importance of attacking correctly? I did that once already, shouldn't that be enough for you to stop using sentences like "no one is interested in making Hatsumi "work" anymore"? :bang: It's completely fine for you to criticize Hatsumi sensei's technique (especially since it's not like you are going to seek out a skilled practitioner of his art to practice or spar with) and discuss what is seen in the videos online. But... You know NOTHING of his practice except for what is shown on the outside. What you do know is that Takamatsu Toshitsugu acknowledged him as successor and Sôke of nine schools, and the fact that you even breathe words about what he needs or doesn't need in his practice is completely disrespectful in my opinion to a man who has already proved himself in many ways and has more knowledge of classical japanese martial arts in his big toe than everyone in this thread has together.
Weak....You're saying he's too old to be given a viable attack, but still able to produce something SO WONDERFULLY timed that Someya (a younger man) fell so deeply into it that he gets cut? Weak....Choose one or the other..Either Hatsumi CAN do it, or he can't and SHOULD just sit back and let younger men demo while he explains.... Weak.....I'm sure he does notice it...Just doesn't give two rats hairs about it..And so the Bujinkan gets overfed and overindulged.. Weaker...You seriously value your own training so little that excusing this as being done because he's already passed on what is REAL to someone and doesn't need to try anymore is okay? I'm sorry....You and I both know that not one of you would have ever criticized the video if I hadn't pointed the flaws out...Don't pretend like you knew what I was talking about...If you did, you'd never have put the video up here..It's not a good one. The "disgrace" in this, is that Hatsumi does a technique as bad as that and no one stops to notice...No one. So I pointed it out...And tried to show you and others here why it was such inane work...My respect for Hatsumi is enough to be polite..And I have been all through this...I've never once called this waza for what it is...And I won't now..Read into that what you like. (I respect Hatsumi for Bo, and Taijutsu, because I've seen him demo some wonderful waza in those.. But his Ken is sorely lacking.. And yes, that's only my opinion, but I've seen GOOD ken..And this? This ain't it.) And please don't lecture me about Japanese rules regarding politeness...I've lived here more than long enough to be versed in them far better than you could ever be (You DON'T live here, right?), and I've put in the work to make sure I can do what I say...I would never dream of telling you all to do something I wouldn't do myself...And I have done in my classes, to my own teacher, it's not "disrespectful" to ask why that was done, it's disrespectful NOT TO...Which means you have a lot of work ahead of you.. Warmest regards..
I think that he showed no 2, but really only Someya sensei can tell us if Hatsumi sensei pulled it off or if Someya sensei let him. I suspect the former based on my experience, but I don't know The Buj tries to train 2, 3 & 4 as mentioned earlier I do, however, feel that the footwork, direction of the cut etc should be designed to keep you reasonably safe if you screw up and mis-time it. Which would be the case in scenario 1 In other words your waza should have a margin of error built into them I don't think that any sane martial artist would suggest that moving to get your sword out before an agressor made a cut at you was a bad idea. So I hope I'm reading your post wrong
If that's how you read it, yes, it's a little off...The draw has to be done at the same time as he cuts, or you can fake a draw and attempt to get him to cut space, but that's a different waza..If it's attempted like this earlier you'll die...It has to be the exact same time at the earliest..Which is why this waza is SO hard to pull off well..Or at all...
Okay....in the interest of maintaining a peaceful accord( and the fact that both Ben and Will are friends of mine ), I would humbly suggest that we at least make an attempt to be dispassionate in this discussion, if for no other reason than it is an interesting thread that so far hasn't been contaminated by any of the usual suspects and it would be a shame if it was locked. Personally, I feel that being challenged or questioned about my practice can be a healthy thing, when done intelligently, and especially when the discourse is conducted with some measure of civility. However, on the subject of challenge.... How many of those posters here who live in the UK and who at least claim to be passionate about kenjutsu have actually ever entertained the notion of, oh I don't know....maybe attending one of Dr. Zoughari's seminars in an attempt to discern for themselves the viability of the iai and kenjutsu available for study within the Bujinkan? How about those of you actually living in Japan, who may be only a few train stops away from Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan? Ever considered making an excursion in Noda just to see for yourself what the deal is? Anybody? Because....that's what I would do, particularly if it concerns anything remotely to do with koryu, which is a subject that I am passionate about. Personally, I wouldn't be content to sit back and watch YouTube, especially if I had the opportunity to interact in some way with the principles involved. But that's just me. - Mark Spada
See that's the problem Does it concern anything remotely to do with koryu........ :whistle: Relax guys take a breath and note the
I was meaning anyone. You can't study, practice, and understand koryu from reading books or watching videos. If you don't feel that Hatsumi sensei has the chops....go see him and find out for yourself. - Mark Spada
