Hello there, Last night I was waiting for a bus in a in a rough area. As I was waiting, I was appoached by 4 "steet urchins" (boys) of about 13-14 years old. They were drunk and agressive. The ring leader asked what I was staring at to which I repiled "nothing." He was in my face pointing and telling me that he'd waste me. They left for 2 minutes only to come back and start this over again. Now two of them were in my face and being agressive. All this time I was backing off and asking them to back off which they didnt. I asked them to put their hands down and stop gesticulating in my face (I didnt actually use these words as they would not have understood). Then the ring leader punched me, bleeding my lip. I again asked them to back of and stay away which they didnt. They kept advancing. I then did a teep (front push kick) and one of them did a backwards roll for about 6 feet. And then I got the ring leader with one. Luckily the police came at this point and the scum ran off. The reason that I didnt punch is I do boxing so I know how to punch, Im about 200lbs but only 5'7'' and its muscle (I was more shocked by the fact that they had chosen me than actually getting hit) so I would have taken someones head off. With this in mind I thought that a kick would keep the distance between me and them. This experience lead me to ask myself a few question. 1. Was I right to do what I did?- Should I have moved to another bus stop when I was approached the first time? Should I have ran away when I was approached again and punched? 2. I understand the legal concept of reasonable force. How does this work in a preemptive situation? Also, how would this work for a "submission" moves? Are you allowed to break/choke out if you are being attacked. What about when there are multiple opponents? 3 I choose to kick to get distance between me and them. It worked like a charm the first time (I still laugh as I see the image in my head of the guy rolling into a ball). The second time I skipped into/stepped into the kick to cover the distance but this kick was not as effective as the guy knew I could kick. I have told you the reason why I didnt punch. What would you have done? Thats all, James Sharkdance
i think you did well mate. what you did definately classified as reasonable force under UK law. most impressive was the fact that you kept your cool the first time - i would have started breaking some skulls reasonable force is completely dependent on the situation. assault, battery or ABH is what could have been expected from them in this situation and so they would be classed as reasonable to use against them. submissions are slightly different though. for example an armbar which broke the arm would be classed as ABH, but if the bone punctured the skin it goes up to GBH which is excessive in that kind of situation. the same with choking- you may have trouble legally if they suffered a blood clot, or even died, as a result of your actions, but if tey just passed out it would be fine. the second time they came i would have presumed the worst and KO the first guy who came close then go straight for the second aggressor. i reckon at that age they would have just ran off. how old are you btw?
Hey Mike, You did the right thing mate, and I know you could take my head off with one of those spades you call hands, so a 14 yr old neds going to take flight 1. If they were older and more capable, I might have legged it. The problem here being that any nonce can be tooled up, regardless of age. 2. Legally speaking, if I broke someones arm I'd leg it and not hang around. The choke option only really works if you can keep the 'chokee' between you and his mates whilst you work it. If you do get lifted for gods sake don't tell them I showed you how to break arms 3. I'd have punched their lights out because I'm not as nice as you But then I can't hit as hard as you anyway I'd probably used some off-balances as well to push them into each other. Depending on how I was faring I'd teach them a lesson or leg it.
In my book you did the right thing. I like to think that I would have done much as you did. (I've never been in that situation.) The question is one of morality -- right versus wrong. Some vocal people, both politicians and voters alike, do not believe that you should have defended yourself. You should have taken the beating because self-defense is not a human right. To that I say a bunch a swear words. You acted well. Good job. I hope that I can do as well when my day comes.
You did the right thing mate. You did all you could to de-escalate the situation and it worked. Alas - I'd have smashed the guy who punched into about 14 pieces
It was just afterwards that I thought about my MA training. Ive done TKD, boxing, kickboxing and a bit bjj. I DONT WANT TO TURN THIS INTO A STYLE VS STYLE BUT.... For the bjjers out there, how would they have dealt with the situation? I mean against multiple opponents in self defense. I imagine that you would not go to ground. So you would strike instead. I really didnt want to ask this question, how does bjj equip its students with self defense skills against multiple opponents. *Im not getting at/devaluing bjj as its currently my favourite MA. I was wanting some input on this so we can discuss and not "slag off" For example, in TKD (which is what I would consider my "base" MA) we spar against multiple opponents so there are a few skills such as lining the opponents up so at any one time you are only fighting one guy who is blocking the other guys. Also getting one opponent in a choke and using him as a sheild. Please add to the discussion and not TKD/BJJ is crap TKD/BJJ is much better. Ta.
You sound like you handled yourself really well, distance was a great idea. Ignore me if I'm getting too hypothetical and I'm not trying to say you didn't do well but if urchin #1 had a knife it could have turned out pretty ugly, which probably would have made running the better option. Of course there are alot of variables that then would have come into play eg, was he hiding the knife or showing it, I was just wanting to know what you think you would have done if that was the case, or if you thought about it while it was happeneing?
Like I said previously, using off-balances to move them into each others way. A common misconception about grappling is that the grappler will wrestle you to the ground, we can also throw you into your mates And if an experienced grappler wants to break the 'grapple contact', they can do that too
I recently ended a possible two on one encounter - albeit before No.2 had twigged what was going down - using grappling against a guy throwing punches. Weave, clinch, take back, suplex, BOOM! Guy No.2 decides to re-evaluate his desire for some of the same. Non-Grapplers often assume that go down means stay down.
The area is rough so when this happened I was not surprised. I did consider the fact that one of them might have a knife. To be honest, if they had a knife I would have run. I just hope that I would have seen the knife before if was in me. I was delighted with the presence of mind that I had. ie- check for knife, keep them all in front of me, try to keep distance, defuse the situation verbally. I was also strugging if I should hit them or not. I mean, I can take a punch....ive fought in heavyweight full contact kickboxing so a punch from a 14 boy is not going to do much to shock me. What made me strike and get ready to was advice on MAP about the myth about waitiing for a strike before you unleash. I know that I was actually stuck first but it seem that TO ME I justified it to myself (as I say I was not hurt by the punch so do they really deserve to be hit?) My only concern is that these areas have a network of people all linked, so the fact that I hit these guys their bigger brother, cousin, dad could be the next one I face.
If you want to avoid this type of thing there is an important lesson to be learned here.... That's the most important part of the scenario to address.
Thats the thing- I didnt want to come across as "BjJ meanz that u r on da ground so howes that gonna help u" My bad. Another thing that I was considering....unleash a punch to the ring leader and when the others see his face fly off they might leg it.
The 'wait to get hit' thing about most MAs self-defence is mostly taught by people who have never been there, if they had they would realise how hard it is (not impossible) to block a strike is whilst your trying to keep check of his 3 mates and the fact that your legs have gone all wobbly with adrenaline. You have to justify a pre-emptive strike to yourself before a confrontation occurs, that way the moment you feel threatened, is the moment you defend yourself. Sounds easy doesn't it
That's probably what my reaction would have been. A good hard leg kick would probably been the weapon of choice. Last time I did this the guy went into shock and his partner in crime legged it and left him there twitching
I am only 15. I've started taking Ninjutsu and have been doing so for about six maybe eight months. Laws in the UK would class what you did as reasonable force because, as far as you've said, you didn't actually break anything etc so it's not GB or ABH. Most people would probably have said what you did was wrong but I say well done! You kept your cool and used what you learned without loosing your head and trying to kill them, even with a bleeding lip, which i'd find hard to do. As a Ninjutsu 'artist' we do learn how to handle against multiple opponents and most of what i've been taught, so far, is how to take down your opponent in a safe, quick and easy way whether it's by a throw, lock, flesh hold, grapple or anything other than. Well done to you again for keeping your distance and your head.
Did this in a 3 on me a couple of years back, right cross to the ring leader who happened to be in the middle (well he have to be, wouldn't he ), turned to give the guy to my left a thrust kick and waiting for the last guy to jump me......... only to see him doing the 100 yard dash
