I thought these days were over :(

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by icefield, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Icefield, do you think the issue could be around pre-conceived ideas as to what a typical BJJ club is?

    What I mean is to the untrained eye, or the practitioner who hasn't done research, do they expect a cage, beefy men who will crumple the average guy and full contact?

    Do you think they want what BJJ / grappling has to offer, but don't realise it's about skill, flow and hours in, rather than a bloody cage?
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I dunno. If you're watching loads of grappling tutorials you'd get a feel for the atmosphere quickly I would assume.
    Simon likes this.
  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I think it's two things if I'm honest,
    One is a hang over from the old traditional thing of the more scarce somethingthe better it is, we are all drawn to the esoteric and mysterious.
    The second thing is some people only.pay lip service to wanting to be a white belt again, f

    If they are running their club and want to introduce grappling it's much easier to learn from dvds or an online course than go to a good club, become a white belt again and spend months being beaten by people with only a few months total training time compared to their decades in arts.

    Much easier to watch on line, best their own students with moves neither of them actually know and pretend they are learning grappling
  4. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I get annoyed when schools say they have boxing, when really they have punching.

    It shouldn't bother us, but when you see your own school struggle to get students through the door while these other clubs thrive, it does get to you.
    axelb and Dead_pool like this.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I know next-to-nothing about BJJ, and even I know they don't compete in a cage!
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Not compete no....but plenty of bjj places gave cages or are affiliated with mma gyms.
    One of my abiding memories of bjj was getting tapped by Conor McGregor's coach while in a cage. :)
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    There a few pro submission matches taking place now in cages, before MMA matches in the states.

    But its not usual.....
  8. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep it's not normal
    And we aren't really talking about peoples perceptions of bjj and grappling who never grapple

    I'm more talking about people who add grappling to their existing training so know what it is, but for some unknown reason chose to be video, dvd, Youtube or long distance trained rather than actually find a decent instructor close to them.

    It's akin to claiming to be a boxing coach and listing a bunch of impressive names but never actually spending any time with those names, never sparring in a real gym .or competing.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I don't agree with the way some others train. I don't think learning from video's is the way to go, but I also don't spend a lot of time obsessing over it either. If someone asks for advice here on learning from Youtube, then I answer honestly, because I consider them asking here to be them doing research and wanting an opinion from experienced martial artists. Beyond that, well whatever. Your life dude/ dudette.

    Honestly, one of the worst things about the online martial arts community (whether it be forums or Youtube or whatever) is how much time people worry about others training. Complaining about others training. Feeling they have to be the guardian of all martial arts to protect the newbies. It's nonsense.

    People have plenty of resources to make decisions about their training, if they choose poor training it is on them. The repercussions from that choice is on them. (Except for kids, I am talking about adults here.) For the kids, well, it is a parenting decision. Parents make a lot of choices I disagree with, but it's their kid. Just like a lot of other choices in life. Let the buyer beware.

    The reality is that even a poor school is NOT going to be a matter of life or death for most people.

    It's human nature, wanting to feel superior to others by putting them down. Even if one is right, so what? I say, we should all worry about our own training more and less time worrying and judging what others do.
    Mitlov likes this.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't think it's all about feeling superior. I think a lot of it comes from a place of wanting to help people by not wasting their time learning in an ineffectual manner. A lot of that comes from these people having wasted their own time thinking they were learning something effective, and have a certain degree of animosity toward teachers making money from dishonest training.

    There is also the fact that there is only so much you can write about technique, or show in video. Martial arts need to be felt. So I think it's also a case of being limited by the format to what can be meaningfully discussed.

    You say that there are plenty of resources out there to inform people of their decisions - well this is one of them. So if you have people who actually grapple saying not to trust instructors lifting techniques from grappling systems without doing the hard work and actually having a base in those systems or rule sets, then maybe that will inform someone reading this to seek out bona fide instruction.

    There is a distinction between this criticism and the "point-fighting karate is rubbish", or "TKD is rubbish", because people who teach those things are not claiming to be teaching anything other than karate or TKD. You take it or leave it.

    If I came out and said that I'd added a BJJ component to the Marbo syllabus, because my mate who's a blue belt showed me a couple of moves and I've been trying out techniques cribbed from youtube, I would expect to be called out on it and my students told to seek out a legit BJJ gym if that is what they want to learn.
    Dead_pool and icefield like this.
  11. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf New Member

    Well, I can tell you that BOTH law enforcement AND corrections believe there is a point to a short course in basic combatives. Having been through both academies (and worked in both fields), I can say I found their "Defensive Tactics" training to be more of an introductory and over view (or preview) compared to the places I pay to train at. They realize this, too, because they encourage cadets to seek out further training. But (1) I did take something away from it (2) It did get folks, who had zero training, to a spot a little better than where they started.

    I know some folks will point out that, in LE, you have several force multipliers at your disposal (tazer, spray, pistol) but remember - in corrections, often, you have NONE so empty handed tactics are of great importance. During the corrections academy, two weeks were spent on defensive tactics. I think THAT is about as short as a "quick n ready" course can be and still have some value.
  12. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Just curious--how many hours total is that? 8 per day, 40 per week? (Maybe 25-30 if you take out lunch and other breaks?)
    So something like 50-60 hours of instruction on defensive tactics?
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Nah I think they get a combative course like once a year or something like that.
  14. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I spoke to a wpc I was training with a couple of years ago , she told me they got 1 day a year training.
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep I'm.not saying look I'm better than you because you are video trained.

    I'm saying why on earth would you only be video/ long distanced trained in this day and age and then have the nerve to teach it as good material to unsuspecting students who have put their trust in you.

    Why would you be so deluded?
    Andl leadyour students on?
    Odds are if they don't train elsewhere they won't know any difference because the coach will know just enough to be better than them, even though his stuff will be bad.

    We are a resource for new students as much as any other website and as such I would say to them ask the following questions of any grappling coach

    1 what are your credentials (easily in gi than no gi)
    2 Where have you trained and who with directly and for how long?
    ( many can say I trained with so and so and it sound impressive until you dig deeper and it turns out to have been a3 hour seminar, or my stuff comes from this guy and it turns out to be from a DVD series)
    3) where have you competed and where have your students competed (especially relevant for those who do no gi and don't have recognised grades)

    If the answers to the above are none, can't say and nowhere respectively walk away please no matter how good their sales pitch or how easily they roll.you into a pretzel.
  16. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Oh I was asking specifically about this bit:
    Specifically, trying to figure out how many hours that two week course spent on actual combat training (vs lunch time/breaks/etc), translating that to Black Wolf's feeling on 'X hours is about as short as quick n ready can be to still have some value'.
  17. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf New Member

    Unfortunately, NO, there was no annual requal or any refresher. So.... the rough tally I'm about to try to come up with was ALL there was. Unless you trained on your own time/dime, this is what ya got -

    L.E. academy was way too long ago (I'm no youngin) so THIS is for the corrections academy. During the academy, we worked four 10 hour days. Lunches were long, down time was plenty. Also, a whole bunch of time was spent on exercise which I do not disagree with them, on that, because (1) I believe being physically fit makes a HUGE difference in fighting (3) C.O.'s are typically out of shape. So, actual time on the mat, drilling techniques, 3 - 4 hours per day and NOT every day because you have to figure in test day and physical evaluation day. My best guesstimate would be 20 solid hours of training combatives.
    Morik likes this.

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