I just want to compare

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Justin M, Jan 12, 2006.

  1. Justin M

    Justin M New Member

    I just want to see the similarity between the Kenpo that I've been practicing with what you guys have been studying.

    The school I go to the instructor does not teach a punch to the face. This is usually the first choice of many beginners who have not experienced the pain of knuckle breakage. The finger bones are roughly the diameter of lead pencils, and they break very easily. The only punch he really does accept is a quick jab to the nose. Palm strikes or palm hooks are usually put in place of the punch.

    Eye jabs. These are AWESOME when in a dirty street fight. These are all you really need to stop a fight. Swipe someone in the eyes! If your attacker can't see, he can't chase you. Very simple, quick, and effective.

    Eye rakes. Nasty, nasty things. If done with perfect timing before he blinks, you will walk away with his eye lids in your finger nails. Some people think of this as "sissy fighting". Sorry, but if it's my life or your life... I WANT TO WALK AWAY FROM THIS. In the street there are no rules! You have no idea what this person will do to you if he defeats you. He may be some sick ******* and drag you off into the back alley and have his way with you. Who knows?!?

    I just want to see if any of you have learned any of this in your practice. I've talked to some others who practice this art and look at me crazy when I name the eye jab or eye rake.

    -Justin M
     
  2. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    The system I am training in (A tracy-traco sort of modified system) is full of eye gouges, eye rakes, groin shots, throat punches and such. While we don't have any punches straight to the face (that I can think of at the moment anyway) there is a lot of back-knuckles to the head while stepping out of a technique...

    Jeez, people don't learn that stuff? Kenpo is supposed to be a street self-defense style...fight dirty, win dirty...
     
  3. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    Justin, I think your description is accurate. The kenpo that I am familiar with is full of groin strikes, kicks to the kneecaps, throat strikes, eye gouges, eye rakes, punches to the temples, handswords to the sides of the neck, etc...

    James Mitose said in his book that Kenpo was purely a self-defense art. I thought it was strange when some of my friends who study tournament Karate told me that the backfist should "go to the side of the head where the referee will be standing".

    My instructor is a male nurse in charge of a ward at the local VA hospital for Amercian veterans and many of the patients have psychological issues from post-traumatic stress disorder. He says that he has used elements of kenpo many times only to control; not to destroy. I think that kenpo has such an emphasis on adaptability, we can choose to escalate to full-on kenpo mode or just try to control the situation.

    Because we learn such violent and brutal techniques I think it should be beholden to us to be aware of when such measures are appropriate and when they are not. I would rather just walk away from a drunk who is mouthing off at a bar but I would go to full kenpo mode without hesitation if I was attacked in the dark or in an unfamiliar place, especially if there was weapon involved.
     
  4. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Ya know, that is interesting...I am first a Kenpo practitioner and do a little BJJ and MuayThai. I went to watch a TKD class where I knew the teacher, because I wanted to see their classes and how they did what they do. With some of their black belts we started talking sparring and such, since most of them train for tournaments. We were thinking about sparring just for fun, but then started reading off their rules, no punching to the face, contact is a point so pull back the punches, don't want anyone getting hurt, you know, that kind of thing...

    Now, don't get me wrong, I have respect for tournament arts, it's a skill in and of itself, but what kind of muscle memory is that to be forming? It seems to me, that while it is a skill, it's a skill that could, and likely does, actually decrease your self-defense or "real" fighting game. Making it a habit to not punch at the face and to pull your strikes is a BAD habit to get into I would think...at least if self-defense is a concern of yours.

    When we spar at my school, while not always, but often, we throw it down, people get bloodied noses and bruises and stuff...but, well, isn't that what a martial art is?

    I dunno, the last post just made me think of that.
     
  5. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    That bring up another question, one that others would probably ask us and we should be asking ourselves as kenpo practitioners; How do we train for real self-defense situations without “pulling our punches”? Obviously we do not want to mangle our friends faces or have fingers stuck in our eyes in the dojo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2006
  6. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    thats what gloves are for, and headgear and stuff...I dunno, man, we hit each other pretty damn hard...it's conditioning...we just don't really gouge eyes or half-fist in the throat...
     
  7. Justin M

    Justin M New Member

    no subject

    Okay, I was just making sure that I wasn't the only one learning these brutal techniques. And we also learn a lot of lower kicks. A lot of side kicks to the knee mostly. Maybe a few to the thigh. Nothing above the waste really. And I forgot backfist is another punch. A ridgehand is my favorite. I' actually had to use one of those at a concert back in August. Not in the throat I just tagged him on the jaw right below the ear. Knocked him clean out. That's another thing... though I hate confrontation it really boosts your self esteem when you get into these little scuffles. This really helps you understand what you are practicing and what you are capable of.

    At my school we don't really spar with Kenpo. I mean it's a little hard to without really hurting one another. I don't want to stick my fingers in anyones eyes. We just freestyle. Learn to roll with the flow, because that's a huge part of Martial Arts. We just throw strikes at each other that we know the other person can block. Not bragging, but I have been told that I am very quick with my counter attacks so I obviously don't throw at top speed. This I think is a awesome way to really learn. I truly don't believe that katas do a damn thing for you. It's a dance really. You learn the basics from the katas but if you would try to do them in the street... I don't think you'll walk away from it. But then again that's just my personal opinion.

    I'm just rambling. I can go on and on about this art. I'll just stop here!
     
  8. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    oh no...

    The ole Kata's are useless theory...

    I am not gonna bite there--- You new to the arts?

    James
     
  9. Justin M

    Justin M New Member

    No...

    No, I've been in this for 10 years.
     
  10. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    That's totally incorrect. But this discussion has been done to death, ad nauseum. How can you say that you study martial arts and then ignore and ridicule one of the oldest and most central methods?
     
  11. Justin M

    Justin M New Member

    I'm sorry I didn't think I had to agree with everyone else on this ****in' site. I said that is my opinion! MY OPINION! You like and believe in kata's? Awesome, more power to you. But just because I don't doesn't mean that you gotta question me about my involvement in this art. I have my reasons. You have yours.
     
  12. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    I thought we were talking about kenpo here. If you were learning submission grappling, well then ok.... but if you're not learning katas then you are not really learning kenpo. Could you learn judo without learning how to throw someone? Of course practice with a live partner is a bare minimum, but kata is a large component as well.

    Think about it in terms of musicianship. The kenpo practitioner is a classical pianist. You would never just sit in front of an audience and play scales for a few hours but scale practice is what develops the capacity to play sophisticated pieces. Kenpo is sohphisticated and not just about learning how to "kick a**". If you just wanted to be a punk rock guitar player in a garage band, well ok, but then that's not kenpo.
     
  13. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    don't take this the wrong way, but it's takes a lot of friggin balls to tell someone they are not practicing Kenpo cuz they don't practice it your way...William Chow himself disliked Kata...and some of his blackbelts removed katas from their systems...I don't learn Katas myself...I am unsure of where I stand in the sucks/don't suck debate, but I hardly think anyone has any business telling anyone "they don't practice Kenpo", that's just...well, that's just naughty and you should apologise and go to your room.

    Everyone practices their own way, nobody has any business telling another how to train if they are happy with it.

    I don't practice it, I have learned some...I don't see the value personally, but I sure am not gonna knock those that do.

    Oh, and for the record I was a performing musician for many years playing bass, guitar and keyboards...never took a lesson in my life. Only quite when I had a family...did pretty damn well for myself...
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2006
  14. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    William Chow had the right to dislike Kata because he was a master. People who are 18 years old, even if they have been going to karate since 8 years old, shouldn't be dismissing something as 'dancing' that so many experienced people view as necessary. And I was not suggesting that all successful musicians should study music theory, it was only an illustration. By the way, I'll apologize when someone names a prominent and respected kenpo organization in this country (besides Shorinji) that does not include kata in their program. No offense taken and no offense intended. I guess I did sound a little harsh. It's just that each art has its own distinctive methods that define it, don't they. I'm not going to study one art and call it by a different name. And by the way, opinions are opinions, but not all opinions are equally correct.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2006
  15. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    We have kata, although it is a different kanji used to write it than that used to write kata in other arts like Karate. The normal kanji for kata means a mould and as such implies that it should be an exact copy of your teacher. The kanji used for our kata can also be read as hokei, this has more to do with principles behind the techniques and allows for the different individual ways we humans need to move. While Shorinji Kempo does have single form hokei (kata) there are only a few and they are very short and simple when compared with Karate kata. Our main practice is pair form training using part hokei and part impromptu action, embu (pre arranged fighting sequences, usually of the participants own design) or randori (sparring).

    Shorinji Kempo does not contain killing or maiming techniques, although many of the techniques could cause very bad damage if done incorrectly. Because we are a Buddhist art our techniques are designed to control and end violence. Our eye strike is more a flick with the back of the fingers. It is fast because most of the muscles in the arm are relaxed and not fighting against each other, it is designed only to distract attention from a more powerful strike, lock or throw; not to cause permanent damage.
     
  16. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Interesting, I thought we all had the right to like and dislike whatever we chose...

    I guess we differ on a few points, I also don't really judge my opinions (or anyone elses) based on what "prominent and respected" orgs think, as with "prominent and respected" orgs comes politics, monetary gain and watered-down bastardization of whatever they are dealing with. Obviously I am not saying thats always true, but in modern society it's frequent whether we are talking martial arts or beyond. I am more interested in the skills being taught, not what "prominent and respected" org approves of them, as I highly doubt the drunken idiot in the bar that tries to make trouble with me is going to say "hey, wait, thats not how Kenpo breaks an arm" as I punch through his elbow.

    There are a couple schools in my area that are endorsed by "prominent and respected" orgs in their art and I have checked them out, and they have, without a doubt, the most over-priced, undisciplined instruction I have seen. I won't mention names because I really don't want to start any wars, but I will say, without reservation, that myself and my family are learning for better skills from own instructor that doesn't have an org endorsement than a few other places are, regardless of who they funnel money up to.

    Also, it is an art like any other art, and subject to interpretation, and I don't see kata as being a defining factor of what Kenpo is, because MANY arts use kata...it's hardly unique or defining.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2006
  17. Flashing Dagger

    Flashing Dagger Valued Member

    Good points. I'm sorry I was so quick to judge.
     
  18. snow_tiger

    snow_tiger New Member

    I'll stay away from the discussion as it pertains to what ken(m)po is or isn't as involving forms/kata. To each their own...

    To speak directly to the comment that kata is useless, I will say that I feel this is overly-generalized and mostly just wrong. Students learn their basics through forms. Forms are an integral way of teaching proper structure, movement, etc... I'm not saying people have to do them to be kempoists, nor that they have to like them, but I am saying that to write them off as useless dances is an uninformed statement.
     
  19. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

  20. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Actually, if you read much from Chow, he was kind of a wacky guy, one interview he will say one thing and in another he will say another thing...I guess the contradiction in his feeling toward katas is just another to chalk up on the list...
     

Share This Page