I have a question

Discussion in 'Judo' started by JunFanJack, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    JunFanJack, Judo's purpose is Judo, just as boxing's purpose is boxing and thaiboxing's purpose is thaiboxing. Some people aren't that concerned about self defence, they care more about the combative sport side of their training.

    Also I know practitioners of each of these arts who train soley in their chosen art and who have each successfully used their skills in self defence situations.

    Its nice to have different arts that specialise in certain aspects of fighting. Very very few people are experts in every area and having Judo(throws, subs), Boxing(punches, footwork), thai (kicks, knees, elbows), BJJ (subs, positioning) as different options means that its easy to get expert tuition in the area you want to improve.

    Have you heard of Georges St Pierre? He's one of the best fighters in the world right now, amazingly well rounded with no obvious weaknesses in any area. He attributes this partly to the fact that, rather than simply train at an MMA gym, he trains wrestling with wrestlers, boxing with boxers and BJJ with grapplers. Then a few times a week he trains in MMA to put it all together. Certain aspects of his game have improved drastically because he's training with people who are experts in those areas.
     
  2. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I don't know whether you mean it to be or not, but I find your attitude rather disrespectful to Judo and to those who do Judo.

    First of all, why do you care so much? You obviously don't train in Judo, so what it teaches and whether or not it fits in with your idea of the ideal art for the 'street' seems totally irrelevant to me. Plenty of people train in Judo and love what they do and what Judo is. There are others who train in Judo to enhance their throwing skills (like me). If all arts covered all aspects of combat then there would be no difference between them and life would be incredibly boring! Judo is great because it specialises. I think in martial arts you need styles that cover a wide range of techniques (such as Ninjutsu) and arts that are extremely specialised (such as Judo or BJJ).

    Judo teaches techniques that are excellent when used in the sporting arena but it also has plenty of techniques that are excellent (some with a slight modification) for self defence.
     
  3. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    This seems a bit silly. If they're close enough to hit, they're close enough to be grabbed.

    You're sort of missing the point. Judo doesn't make you move a "Japanese way" (ignoring a lecture about the influence of Russian, European, and East Asian influences on modern Judo that, frankly, I'm only slightly familiar with), it teaches you to grab and throw people. Within Judo you're going to find similarities to other throwing disciplines, like Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling, Sambo, Shuai-Jiao, Glima, Cornish wrestling, and so on. If Kali involves grabbing and throwing people, then yes, Judo used "Kali moves".

    Judo is evolving. It's continuing its evolution towards specialization. And that specialty is very practical. Most fights happen in a clinch. You do not want to clinch with a good Judo player.

    You're still missing the point. Judo has some very specialized skills. Within those skills, though, you'll hardly find any who are better. Judo is excellent for building balance. It gives you the ability to put your opponent down, quite violently, using leverage. It teaches you to use his clothing against him. You also get to learn submission holds and pins, for when those situations would be appropriate. If someone is looking for a wholistic self-defense program, Judo isn't the answer, but it can form an excellent base from which to build upon.

    Tell you what, instead of prognosticating about what Judo is or isn't good for, go train it. Nothing clears up ignorance like experience.
     
  4. Spinal

    Spinal Valued Member

    I think it all boils down to "what are your motives for studying your martial art".


    If your motives are self-defence, then judo alone might not be your best bet. If you plan to go and fight for the army, again, judo might not be the best of choices. That said, judo will be a fantastic complement to any other martial art.

    IMO, if your motives are mma or self-defence, first learn precisely that, and then cross train with other arts (like judo). This will give you more in-depth insight into that art and it's specilities while allowing you to "import" the aspects you want.

    For example, my motives in martial arts are self-defence (and now I'm lookign at sparring, but that's different). I started with Systema; moved to CKM and am now migrating to UKM. All these are self-defence oriented. I try to cross train with TKD (to work on my kicks, which are my weak point) and Ninjitsu (to work on my fluidity and some of the more "traditional" locks). I realise that something like Aikido or Judo would do my training a world of good - but time is limited...

    So really, it all boils down to your motives. If you feel that MA are for self defence; then you need something focused at self defence in the "area" you will be attacked. E.g. no point in training in French navy self defence if you never plan on setting foot on a boat... that training if geared towards balancing on a swaying ship, not on stopping someone with a gun.

    Each art has its strengths and weakneses; that's what is so great about martial arts. Asking "isn't karate better than judo because you can strike" is similar to saying "batman can beat up spiderman because he has a tool belt" (to which I would answer, ah but spiderman has his web ;) )

    M.
     
  5. JunFanJack

    JunFanJack Valued Member

    Aaaargghh, i'm not criticizing anything, i'm asking questions, and the purpose of this is so that i maybe find some answers. Is that a problem? And btw, to the person that said if you're close enough to punch someone, then you're close enough to grab is probably true, but it's much more difficult to grab somebody than it is punching in a lot of cases. If someone gives you a quick straight punch, the chances are, that you're not going to catch or grab the punch. To grapple somebody, you have to grab them, which can be quite hard if you're against a good puncher or kicker, who is throwing hard shots at you while you're trying to grab them.

    And about cross training, many people don't cross train very well. They'll practice a striking art, then a grappling art, and they'll think that there are no more areas to cover. You can't just put two together, because how would you know which technique to do from which art? Into of crossing them, i think it needs to be merged, they need to merge into each other, and get rid of a lot of things from both martial arts, (or more). But that is a different debate.
     
  6. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    You've asked questions which have been answered by me and others.:bang: Go do MMA and stop trying to tell people what they're doing wrong with their training.
     
  7. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Alright, well, benifit of the doubt, maybe that's not how you intended it, but that's how a lot of it reads.

    Aye, that'd be me...

    You're not grabbing the punch. That's silly. You're grabbing the person. Judo clinchwork takes control of a person's center. Once again, if you took a couple of Judo classes, you'd understand this.

    And what fights have you seen that involve a "quick straight punch"? For the purposes of self-defense, which I assume you're talking about here, most fights begin almost nose-to-nose, well within grabbing distance, and involve lots of big, sloppy haymakers.

    Gracie Challenge videos, as well as countless boxing, Muay Thai, Taekwondo, and MMA matches say otherwise. If someone's moving forward, they're virtually walking into a clinch. Which again, you don't want to be in with a Judoka.

    With all due respect, my sixteen-year-old friend, I assume you've got some sort of study to use as a reference for this? Because your own experience seems quite limited.

    Ya know, I'm a cynic. I don't think too highly of the human race as a whole. But I think that someone would be able to tell that an arm bar would be best suited for a groundfighting situation, while a thigh kick would probably be best suited while standing up. I could be wrong. Maybe the world is full of people who've crosstrained Muay Thai and BJJ, who once on their back, start to panic with indecission about whether to use an Upa escape or to attempt a spinning back kick. But I haven't seen too many of those guys. Mostly I see lots of MMA matches with people who have crosstrained, who don't seem to have this problem.
     
  8. JunFanJack

    JunFanJack Valued Member

    Well, say if somebody is on their back, with no rules. They do Judo and Thai boxing. Would they go down and put them into a submission, or, would they simply kick them?
     
  9. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    They could just walk away:running:
     
  10. Rhea

    Rhea Laser tag = NOT MA... Supporter

    Exactly.
    And you're assuming everyone would do the same thing.
     
  11. Spinal

    Spinal Valued Member

    Or they suddenly remember that instead of Judo or MuaiThai they studied CKM/UKM/Systema for self defence and used that...

    Alternatively they don't do anything.

    It's all down to the person and the situation, those episodes occur in a flash and you barely have time to realise what's going on. Whatever your body feels is more instinctive (this usually is what you've trained more in) takes over.

    At the end of the day, (no offence to Judo nor MuaiTai) neither is ideal for self defence. They are martial arts with other objectives (nowadays) in mind. If you want to train in modern-day street self defence, go for an art specifically tailored for that.

    M.
     
  12. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary


    As someone who does Judo and MT (Or tries to anyay) I'd be really interested in what you think a better art for modern day self defence would be?
     
  13. BruceLee94

    BruceLee94 Valued Member

    Are there dojos out there that develop Judo into a primarily self defence art?
     
  14. Spinal

    Spinal Valued Member

    I wasn't trying to offend practitioners of either of those arts - but neither of those (imho that is - and I don't know much of eithe rof those arts - so please correct me if I'm wrong) prepares you for a street situation where you are drunk, attacked by a knife, battacked with a roken/whole bottle, attacked with guns, attempted rape, multiple attackers, baseball bats, tied, dogpiled, etc... (kinky :love:)

    The three main MAs I've done (Systema first, then CKM and now our school is transitioning to UKM, so I know very little of UKM yet) come from a modern-warfare/army combat background. They were designed to take out someone wielding a modern weapon or unarmed, they weren't designed to injure someone in heavy armour (which I believe Judo is).

    Each art has it's fortes, and while anything designed to hurt people will, in the end, hurt people - each is designed for a specific scenario.

    Michele
     
  15. Raptorman

    Raptorman Valued Member

    AFAIK most of the MA's were more rounded and diverese long ago when they were used as a method of defending oneself. Boxing had throws and clinch work, Karate had grappling etc. But as society developed MA's became more of a sport and started to specialize in certain areas. I'm not saying this is the rule by the way and I'm open to correction in the topic.
    Even MMA has its rule set, eye gouging, fish hooking, small joint manipulation and biting etc. arent allowed. Why? Because its sport.
    Similar to whats been said: why does rugby not use a round ball? Because its rugby!
     
  16. JunFanJack

    JunFanJack Valued Member

    If you want the most practical MA's for a street defense situation, then just look at which arts are designed for that, and are used by armies etc, there's - JKD, KFM, PFS, Krav Maga, Philippine Arts for knife crime and other things.

    If you are doing ORIGINAL MT, which was once used which has pretty much no rules, and was taught to the Thai soldiers, then i see that could be effective with a little necessary updating.
     
  17. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    One thing I would like to point out is that Judo, Muay Thai, etc. while being somewhat "sportified" have the advantage of training full contact/heavy contact/whatever you want to call it, with a set of rules in place that hopefully makes sure that no one gets killed or maimed. Things like eye gouging, fish hooking, small joint manipulation, biting, etc. cannot be safely practiced at full speed (plus, I really doubt you'd find many willing partners... :D) . This means that if you ever need to apply these things in a self defense situation, you may or may not be able to apply them with enough force to do damage. Whereas if you practice something like Judo or Muay Thai, you'll already be used to delivering techniques with power and you'll also be used to taking some punishment. And don't forget that you always have the option of training both a "sporty" art and a "non-sporty" art. :) That way you (hopefully) have the best of both worlds.
     
  18. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    To answer your original question:

    Because Judo is for throwing, silly.

    To be fair, I doubt the modern strategy of Judo has little to do with the strategies of original Japanese JJ.

    For all the people who are saying that Judo isn't good for self defense, I think one of the most viable strategies there is is to hit your opponent with the biggest thing there is - the earth.

    By your logic then, everyone should study MCMAP or the Army Combatives, which are mostly watered down BJJ. Not JKD. Not PFS. Not Krav Maga. Not FMA.

    BJJ

    That's right
     
  19. JunFanJack

    JunFanJack Valued Member

    I don't agree with what you said. US Navy SEALS, US Army Rangers, US Marines, 45 Commando (Royal Marines) and over 50 law enforcement agencies across the globe such as FBI, DEA, US Marshals, and New Zealand Police all use PFS, which isn't watered down BJJ at all.

    And, in JKD, you do a lot of sparring, for the strikes etc. you can practise eye jabs by using goggled, and i don't think it takes a genius on how to bight somebody.
     
  20. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x


    Anything to do with rabbits?
     

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