This idea came to me after just adding something to another thread... it's just a hypthetical and I in no way endorse it. It's just that the forums been a little quiet these last couple of days and I'm just interested to see what people think. Okay, here goes... Say you have a bujinkan practitioner who has been around for 30 years...he (for agument's sake...could be a she) holds the highest rank possible, has been a shining student. But they have also been, say a security guard, a bouncer, a soldier etc...been through a war, felt hand to hand in real life on many occasions and have learned much from it, yadda yadda yadda... And now they think that they could do things a bit different...not much, still the same 9 schools, but maybe also a tenth version, a hybrid of the the other 9...they decide to leave and open their own Budo Taijutsu school... What my question is...would this new school be seen by the other X-cans as a legitamate ninjutsu school? (Psst...Please, I don't want people to get all fired up and angry...it's just food for thought and a discussion topic...my friends and I do this all the time over drinks just to get things interesting...like what do you think would happen if China declared war on Australia...dumb things like that.) Peace Nick
It would only be semi-traditional, so it's possible that it would be viewed and taken with a pinch of salt. Who's to say though that it wouldn't be classed as a new X-kan in years and years to come ?
he he...yeah Don't get me wrong Dale, I'm really not trying to offend anyone, I was just thinking of how many martial arts systems evolve and spread...and was just thinking to myself, imagine if one day there wer other schools that are not of the 3 X-cans that are still recognised...it then just seemed like a good thing to post... Then again... Everyone replies will either prove that right or wrong
Yep, I think I understand where you're comin' from with this. See my post in the "BBD Bashing" thread.
Thanks Dale, Just read it... I agree 100% You wisdom shines through once again (grovel grovel slobber slobber) he he (as a rule of thumb I like to stay on the good side of anyone that can break many of my bones at onve without effort)
So true Dale, the thing to be taken note of though with your question RTanto is why would they choose to go out on their own while still having the chance to train with their senior. You hear all this stuff about students surpassing their masters and all that but to be quite frank it is in the most part BS unless the Master stopped being a student. Lets however say that your Students has surpassed the Master and is now better etc. Why then would he still not train with the Master as I am sure the master would love to play with someone who was at or above their own skill level. Dale has stated the point above but I would like to add that if Takamatsu was still alive today , IMHO Hatsumi sensei would still be doing the trip to train with him more often than he use to when he was training with him while alive. Of course this is only my opinion but I doubt I would be to far wrong.
Fire & Steel, I agree with you all the way, My original question was not whether it would be logical to leave, or morally correct to leave...it was not if the student is better than the master or if he feels he has stopped learning....my question was would they be accepted as a new kan? I understand Dale's comment on the other thread, and guess, hypthetically speaking the student would have to do it with Hatsumi's blessing... Lucky for everyone...I've got a long way to go before I see those 15 dans! he he... (RT starts drawing up his own Tanto-ha Budo Taijutsu Menkyo Kaiden...)
I might get a toasting for this but here goes: I don't really see what is stopping this person from just applying their experiences and etc to their BBT classes. Afterall we all have our own interpretations of what Soke is doing through our traning and other experiences in life and this chap's would just another one of them. I don't see a need for anyone to break away because they "see things differently" then Hatsumi sensei, we all do! Rather just pass on their what they learned through their experiences to his students...unless you want some kind of recognition/ego trip or wish to follow a different path (one that isn't nessacarily neither worse nor better)... Be gentle :Angel:
RT I got your point but you could ask many people if the thought this guy would still be part of the org or not and get a 100 answers ranging from yes no to blank idiot. The question could only really be answered by Hyp san and the master if they thought one still was part of the other. If we can digress for a moment back to our Soke, I have said many times That I think Soke has been a student of his students for a very long time he learns from us many thing to put in his Budo memory and not just things to do with fighting etc. He will have judged our hearts movement skill personalities strengths weaknesses attitudes faults etc etc. After all most battles are won or lost before any clash of arms so to learn to see through a persons front so to speak is a very high level skill. Furthermore I think being a student of your students has a very very long tradition in the style we study, If all the Soke's from the past were not I doubt we would have had one today or at least one of the skill level we have. They would have needed to be adept at this just to have survived. Scocia I don't know why you think you will get toasted I think it makes sense.Just adding to that, what would make anyone think that a Master who could learn from his student would not or a student who could teach his Master would not ?
That was more directed at the other X-kan students. I didn't want them to be offended by what I was saying. I want to make it clear that I was in no way saying that either Manaka sensei or Tanemura sensei did what they did for reason of ego. They couldn't have not seen what may happen in terms of backlash and etc from Bujinkan students yet still went ahead, obviously shows their conviction in what they wanted to do. I cannot help but respect that. In the end I guess it's all about the why are they (as in the first post)doing it? As in , through their experiences did they find that what they learnt didn't work and wouldn't feel right about teaching it? Or do they want themselves printed in a cheesey MA magazine and get attention on internet forums?
I think the whole controversy in the MA community is in the form of names, Its all very obscure as to what makes this martial art different then that. but as soon as you put a name of some kind too it you have something to compare. So maybe this Kan isnt the same as the next but it is still ninjutsu. True they may not be reconized by the Xkan but it also has no reason too as well. I would like to use the A.K.B.A.N. if I could as an example. A group who set out to further there techniques in all situations, if it doesnt work they augment it the way they feel is neccessary. Now by the time(oh say 40 years) someone else has come along to train with them they'er style may have may have lost it specific techniques but the philosophy is still behind every technique they use. To sum up "A rose is a rose is a rose"
...and, something much more important: that same person may also be someone who might save your life with the same effort. --Snake
