Yes. But I know others see tul as for different things - for me they are based on Kata and thus are meant to do the same thing Kata originally meant to do - this is clear even by Gen Choi's definition - so, if this is your goal.. then you have hit the nail on the head.. if it isnt (ie. you do patterns for various otehr reasons), then people can argue til the cows come home, because as TKDStudent likes to say.. we are talking apples and oranges in regards to patterns! Stuart
But that's also a flawed view because although boxing can last 12 rounds most boxers aren't fighting to make it last that long. It lasts that long because boxers are hard to hit. One thing I learnt from an Iain Abernethy seminar I did was that some techniques can be "wound up" and telegraphed so long as they take advantage of a stunned opponent. So I can see the utitlity of logic of a "power shot" having a place as mentioned before (Iain teaching a hammer fist finisher that was telegraphed but intended for an already hit opponent). Sadly sine wave in patterns is an absolute abstraction or dropping your weight that has ceased to bear any realtion to even that notion of a "finisher". People are dropping weight when the direction of the strike is going up for example!!
Yes and no. Boxers would like to end a fight immediately of course, but they have to have realistic strategies. They will vary these with the opponent but always recognising the fact of the rounds available. Hence we get, "I knew if I could weather the first few rounds he'd tire and I could take the fight to him later on." Mitch
So we are agreed.. boxing is a flawed, yet flawed and still flawed anology to make regarding (new)sine-wave! lol
And of course.. boxers dont have a 'one body movement fits for all' thing for techniques... they rise up on upper cuts, drop down for downward hooks and twist in for hooks! I think the boxing anology may come from the 'kinetic linking' thing.. as in likening it for like!
Indeed. The weight and power is being transferred in the direction appropriate to the technique and trajectory.
Marksmanship principles mean an awful lot when it comes to target competition shooting for a place or prize. The principles of marksmanship are important for all those who fire a gun. HOWEVER in a real life & death combat situation, while one is training in the principles of firing a gun or marksmanship, the real hard cold fact is that you may only have time to draw your weapon, point it (not aim) & pull the trigger. You simply do not have the time to apply all the principles or aspects that are taught & trained on the firing range. This is my point about the ToP & SW, which is only 1 small part. Perhaps you are only 50/50 on SW because it is a difficult concept misunderstood by many & poorly taught by most & rarely applied correctly. jmho
Listen Sir, with all due respect, you look at patterns for what they can or did contain, with your wonderful work on alternate, original or hidden movements. Gen. Choi either did not know them or include them. His patterns were simply mostly offense & defense movements strung together, as basics, in a logical sequence for VISUAL purposes as part of THE ART of his MA. To try to link the movements to actual fighting is not realistic, as no one I knows would step to their left into a left walking stance, performing a low block with outer forearm and then stepping forward into a right walking stance while punching with the right forefist, no one! Do you? Or would you? Now this may be why your enlightened work & that of others, may be great in teaching people SD or these lost movements. But for Gen. Choi it was block & punch, but for artistic purposes, visually. But he insisted that the principles of the ToP that he put forth, was applied strictly in this sense. So to say it is wasting time, telegraphing is just not correct from the POV or within the confines of his (near) total system. (Note: near total, not most efficient). Therefore & from this POV it is not a fair critique IMO. I am sorry, but if you wish to go down this road I will, but you are off base IMHO! You are from my POV misunderstanding & incorrectly connecting his system. As you know, there are 5 parts of the physical composition of his TKD. They are connected & interrelated, but still separate. The forging & conditioning help to shape & mold the body. The basics are improved by the conditioning & led to the patterns, & the concepts can be utilized in combat. Finally these 3 aspects are part of sparring & SD. But it is in sparring & SD, that the training MUST have realism as it related to protection, as if it doesn't it simply would be a waste of time IMHO & his, as I understand it! The ToP had only 4 aspects at 1st. Then a 5th factor was added & finally a 6th was as well. The term SW emerged with the advent of the expanded text, which was part of the founder's lifelong work & his last written instruction book on his TKD techniques. SW can't be viewed in isolation, but part of the larger ToP. But it is THE aspect that gets picked on the most. SW is a small part, but again the most attacked part! SW is like any single aspect of firing a gun. But one simply does not fire a gun in training against a fixed target as they do in live real life & death combat shooting. But in firearms training there MUST be training that tries to simulate combat types of stresses & challenges. It is here that shooters learn to appreciate the hard & cold realities of theory vs. realism. Sadly many MAists or ITFers simply do not do this. Please forget the claim of telegraphing! It only IMHO demonstrates not understanding how & when SW is applied & why it is learned in the 1st place. I could use SW in a real fight, if I have my opponent in the position to do so, ie on the ropes, where I can wind up & let go! The fact that you get it for power, shows you are grasping the concept. It simply is part of a larger ToP which shows you how to utilize more of your mass & that gaining speed is important to increasing power. The initial down or relax in the SW is there in the text, as part of the Training Secrets of TKD & the ToP. Because some misapply it or misunderstand or exaggerate it, is there shortcoming or ignorance, jmnsho! SW is for basic fundamental movements, just like the principles of firing a gun. They are part of a ToP & used in training basics in ISOLATION, or part of performing a Tul, which adds in the artistic qualities of TKD, while at the same time showing the power than can be generated through proper movements.
Isn't one of the prerequisites of learning a pattern that you know the purpose of the movements involved? Sure I've read that in my licence and handbooks. As such they aren't just purely visual. Why then is SW applied to almost every movement in every pattern? Are they all applied to people "on the ropes"?
Of course Sir one must now the purpose of the fundamental movements & they must be performed with full power, most of the time. But the purpose of patterns is stringing these fundamental movements together is a sequence as part of the visual beauty of ITF TKD, because it is an Art form of SD. It is not merely a SD combat system, as ITF TKD has as it primary goal to build a more peaceful world by having students adhere to a high moral code. For many reasons, including what was stated above. There are of course exceptions to the full power movements. These exceptions must be understood as well, to appreciate SW. I have seen Karate students doing Katas with low stances, flat line movements & a lot of tense, as well as slow movements at times. I do not know why they move like that. I don't critique as it is a system that I do not know. I see Kung Fu students doing soft flowing movements, lacking what appears to me being power. I do not understand the reasons why they move like that. I have seen WTFers perform Poomsae with a nice flow, but what looks like a lack of power being put forth. I see that stances don't always coordinate with the hands, arms & leg movements. I see Karate like chambers that are different from the ITF ones. However I can find beauty in all of the above performances. But I don't link any of these what appear to me to be artificial movements to SD. I see them as a floor routine, like gymnastics, that need to be scored on the established criteria set by the ruling org. So I will try to explain ITF Tuls as I understand Gen. Choi wanted them viewed: A sequence of mostly offensive & defensive movements. These movements contained techniques that would demonstrate the complexity of his TKD, along with the gradual progress & degree of difficulty as the higher patterns at times would contain. He wanted them to flow & flow differently than those used by other MAs. In it he demanded that power come across in all the movements, where appropriate & which some exceptions. (these exceptions BTW can help understand the ToP he put forth, as well as SW.) So no! They are meant to be "applied to people "on the ropes"", as there are no people on the ropes, as there are no people in patterns, only imaginary opponent or opponents. They are simply fundamentals being performed in isolation.
This is where I find a difficulty for me, so with respect and if you will indulge me, how is it right to use SW in movements where it clearly does not add power? Upwards movements for example? I find your other arguments compelling in advancing another point of view. It's not one I personally agree with, but I see your argument. We really should have that dinner party one day Mitch
You know, I would happy to go with that IF a) Gen Choi hadnt used another system as his 'inspiration' for the moves and that systems roots didnt have definitive links with kata and SD! b) There was 2, 3 or 5 patterns to 'show ' his art (if thats what you mean by visual) c) Certain moves wernt repeated over and over. I say this because if they are simply a 'visual' representation of the art or of a student performing a technique properly, there is no need to repeat them, as the 'visual' aspect has been satisfied the first time its done! Well.. actually, yes! Though its hard to just put in words, without pictures, lets take the first two moves of Chon-Ji which you refer to here - An attacker fronts up to me (ie. face to face) and grabs me with both hands (double grab/choke etc.). I chamber my low block which uses the chamber to strike his jaw (with my elbow of the blocking arm). Whilst maintaining contact with his jaw (with my forearm), I turn left and execute the block - which in turn forces the stunned opponents head around and the attackers body twists and follows where my arm takes him - around and down. I then step in and follow up with the punch! The walking stances aiding the stability of the take down - no (new) sinewave required - older sine-wave helps in applying pressure into the takedown/choke by dropping our weight into it and the locked back leg ensures our force goes in the direction we want it to (that of the block). Most definatly, as to me, this is the whole purpose of patterns in the end! I sort of agree on that, as, and I say this with respect, in that era, his knowledge of this area was limited and if one wants to limit themselves to that, without seeing the bigger picture that we can now, then the whole conversation becomes mute really! Perhaps.. but when I chat about this stuff, I am not talking from just that POV, but the POV of what kata/patterns etc. really are - attack and defence techniques! And there was me thinking it was "Taekwon-do: The Korean Art of Self Defence", I didnt realise there was a clause that says "only in sparring and hosinsul'! Besides, I`ve read threads that either you or someone else has said, the SD aspects starts from day 1, the rolling of a fist - implying it is inherent in all aspects! By that, you mean the 15 volumes right? In the 1983 (!) copy.. sine-wave isnt included in the TOP, but has a small section later on! There could be a good reason for that.. it could be as simple as the other elements of the TOP make sense, whereas, (new) sine-wave doesnt! Lets not forget either, that I use the original sine-wave.. I am not anti it, as I see benefits to it for many techniques (though not all) - but just not an advocate of the slower/newer version. Sure.. and its why elite groups have places like 'the killing house' etc. To hone the large skills, into small skills in realistic settings - I bet however, that if a certain skill regarding gun-work, worked great at the firing range, but not in 'the killing house', it would be discarded or placed at the bottom of the training pile! That would be fine, if it was taught as a 'concept' to be utilized after your opponent is dazed/stunned etc. but its not, its inherent in every technqiue shown in patterns. And I`m not sure why i should forget.. it does telegraph everything.. bady and TBH, it would probibly allow an 'on the ropes' opponents enough tiem to dodge it and turn the fighta round perhaps! Without actually looking it up (the TOP), if I recall, the text simply says to 'relax' when executing techniques... it doesnt specifically state at the beginning of the technique (which is where I believe you are refering to in this instant to explain the 'down' part), but overall (during the transition)before tensing at the end! No matter the power (though theres no evidence to even show it does create more power AFAIA) , its is no good if the tool never gets to hit the target! JMO Stuart
This always bugged me... as most instructor didnt know them and of those that did, they often gave quirky or unrealistic applications - mostly copycat stuff simply passed down! Perhaps is was simply.. Block technique. Purpose: To block Something Strike technique. Purpose: To strike something etc. Though that would of course be silly... right? Stuart
Me too! I don't even think Choi knew the purpose of some of the movements he put into TKD (because Funakoshi and others didn't either) so always thought it was a bit much to expect it from coloured belts. Even know I think there are high grade TKD people that still have erroneous and ineffective explanations for many of the techniques they "know".
Exactly! And furthermore, if the patterns are simply for 'Visual' purposes.. whats the point of saying one must know the purpose of each move in the first place! Stuart
If TKD patterns are for visual puposes only then we can chuck out the starting 6 moves of Jhoon gun and the w shaped blocks in toi gye right away. They look visually awful IMHO.
I find it very rewarding to dialogue with you. In fact your openness allows some further thought which in turn pushes me to think more & think deeper. You make a great point, to which I think more & would struggle to say that it is SW, as part of the ToP which makes me feel like I am increasing power & flow. Your point can be an exception, where it may be counter-productive. I am not sure how Gen. Choi would have answered. But I will take a stab at it, by saying one must "utilize the knee spring properly", which I think is a direct quote from the training secrets of TKD. Again, everything must be taken together, as SW is only 1 part of 6 aspects of the ToP. Thank you for making me think more!
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent Listen Sir, with all due respect, you look at patterns for what they can or did contain, with your wonderful work on alternate, original or hidden movements. Gen. Choi either did not know them or include them. His patterns were simply mostly offense & defense movements strung together, as basics, in a logical sequence for VISUAL purposes as part of THE ART of his MA. But this is really beyond apples & oranges. It is not even comparing fruits or food groups. But it is like comparing food to metal. Gen. Choi's patterns were artistic sequences of fundamental movements.
Taken in large part from earlier Karate kata. And I find there's lots in TKD patterns that most certainlt aren't fundamental. Fundamental to me is something you absolutely can't do without. And stuff you can't do without is usually very limited, high percentage, not fancy and versatile.
