Sine wave has always been there, though I tend to call it natural motion, a slight rise and fall, not the exaggerated motion of later years. TAGB use the orignal movement, which, as Chris says, includes hip movement, something which I think is often lacking in those with the very pronounced sine wave of recent times. Mitch
What revisions do they disregard then? "This is the same style as the ITF except the TAGB syllabus generally disregards any revisions made to the style after 1983." Thanks for the info, Raz
I agree with Mitch, Sine wave should be delivered naturally. When we walk we naturally rotate our hips and go up and down due to just how a human body moves. The majority of techniques should be delivered from this natural position of a slight hip twist and lower body position. However, beginners tend to also chamber is this position then rise and fall into the technique. This is incorrect as you give away your next technique before you have even started it and limit yourself to delivering the technique or re-chambering in a new position if the situation calls for a new technique suddenly. The "chamber" is never paused on but is purely one stage through with you move to deliver the technique.
We had a little discussion on this elsewere . Though Asterix, could you watch the 2 following perform kwang gae and give your opinion on both of them. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSDUQxu17h4"]Kwang-Gae - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QxI-VoFLEA"]Taekwon-Do patterns Kwnag -Gae - YouTube[/ame] Focusing mainly on sine wave etc
I am obviously going to side with preferring Mr Suska as he is part of the same ITF as I am however even Mr Suska doesn't always do everything perfectly. The second one is very old school TKD and still shows lots of TKD's karate roots. Very much hip twist with not much sine wave (It always amused me when i see people juttering their foot across the floor when doing things like low stance and pressing blocks). That said as its a different style it is most probably generally correctly executed for that style.
Ok to me SW is a great concept & it is what makes ITF TKD TKD. For those that don't understand it, I can't grasp why they so vehemently trash it. If you had someone explain it to you properly & guided you through the motions, starting very basically, breaking down all the aspects & points of the ToP & the Training Secrets, I think most would find that it does indeed help you feel like you are performing with more power. Anyone that says it telegraphs movements & takes too long to implement, really do not comprehend the basis for it & what it is used for. It is indeed an integral part of the ToP. It is in essence a theory of how to maximize more of your body in order to potentially gain more speed & mass into a technique. The TAGB left the ITF prior to SW so I do not think they do it at all.
Yes & I would also add that Gen. Choi did not require any loud audible exhales. However since breath control is a graded criteria far too many over emphasize that as well. Why do so many seem to think that more is better!?!?!?!?
No offence, but just because people don't agree with it, it doesnt mean they don't understand it. I understand it just fine.. i can even do it if need be.. I hear the 'you don't understand it' argument all the time and its just not true. I just disagree with me, as it goes vastly against General Choi's own definition of what tul are - a series of defensive and offensive movements against one or more imaginary opponents' aka self defence... and even if it did increase power (which I don't believe it does, even if it 'feels' like it does) is of no use if its a) wildly telegraphed and b) to slow to be effective.. which the 'new' sine wave does on both counts IMO! I was at a competition the other week and watched a BB perform Yoo-Sin with the newer sine-wave... to me, Yoo-Sin is one of the most effective patterns regarding applications and SD techniques within it - but the way the ITF-er performed it took forever and TBH, took ever single element of SD out of it like squeezing an orange of its juice - in short, it was more a set of single moves performed over and over (68 times) and looked more like a move by move dance recitle (to a slooooooooow tune). Stuart
Dont really wanna get into this as its a 'done to death' discussion that tends to go round and round, but basically, theres some who have seen a distinct change in the sine wave, from a simple up/down motion (what some now call Natural motion)... to a down/Up/Down motion - like you see now. More info here: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html Things have evolved however, with the 'newer' down, itself being dumbed down and called 'relax'/up/down motion. ie. a smaller dip at the beginning. There are also those that feel that General Choi also did a 'relax' at the begnning himself, but never taught it until later for some reason, (a video clip does show this, but then others of his students do not), but his main Instructor GM Park (He was his Chief Technical Officier in charge of all IIC's etc.) never taught it and it was a distinct change after GM Park left the ITF, which makes some of us feel it was instituted for politcal rather than technical reasons! Just search MAP if you wanna read everyones sides! Stuart
Thanks, much I had noticed within the ITF some doing it slightly differently which has caused me to think about how im doing it! Raz
No offense taken Sir! But these points above are exactly illustrative of what I mean by not understanding of SW. SW is as we have gone back & forth numerous times is only 1 aspect of 2 in 1 factor of 6 in ITF's TKD's ToP. We have to realize that it is a theory, taught in the classroom. It is up to the individual fighter to apply techniques in an actual combat situation. Just as a boxer flicks out a jab many times in a fight, they may not wind up & throw the "haymaker" until they have staggered their opponent or have them on the ropes! Likewise a TKD fighter or any other fighter would never "wind up" with SW or other "haymaker" type of attack, as they would be telegraphing & slowing down the delivery. But a well trained fighter will know how to generate more power & use it when appropriate. I think most MAists use some SW when they do power breaking!
So are you saying, like your boxing example, that a TKD person will fight not using sine-wave.. until the moment he makes his telling blow.. then he will employ the sine-wave!!!! Boxing is a flawed anology as, a boxer has to last 12 rounds.. and jabbing is simply part of the game, its not just a set up technqiue, but also to rack up points... a SD situation should be over in 1/2 (perhaps 3) moves... which one of those are equal to the jab? And sure.. I can live with the 'its just theory' part... yet no one Ive ever seen applies the newer sine wave in SD, a fight or even in comp sparring TBH! You only ever see it in patterns performance! Finally, should something that is 'theory', that isnt truely adaptable to what a martial art (martial art meaning war arts of course - lets not take the 'art' part out of context) is meant to be... ie. the theory doent relate to a MA reality, really have such a significant place in the system! Stuart
Yes it is pronounced in patterns as we are taught that patterns are a series of fundamental movements. This is exactly where SW is supposed to be emphasized! When we do fundamentals in basics, spot, stepping or in patterns, we have time & it is useful to work with SW. However Gen. Choi insisted we train with realism, so when fighting we have to keep that in mind. Now most ITFers don't use free sparring correctly or add realism in SD with resisting live opponents either. But then again, many focus on ITF Sparring sports rules, which is not full contact & therefore not applicable! But remember even present day militarize do not practice war game exercises against each other in truing using live bullets or real ammo, bombs etc!
Sorry, but to me, the fundamentals of patterns are taking the moves to their basic form and practicing them solo... patterns are combined movements.. no where in his terminology does it state "Patterns are a series of Fundamental Movements".. or does it (I don't know his books as well as you, but I thought the definition was "a series of offensive and defencive movements".. but how can they be when they are intwined with a product that makes them unworkable in both offense & defence!!! So... this means.. incorperate sine-wave for non-realistic stuff.. but when wanting realisim.. just forget it!!! Hmmm.. maybe its just me.. but it all seems rather contradictory!!! And in either case.. NONE use sine-wave in the guise being discussed! Nor do they throw feathers pretending they are real bullets or hit each otehr with pillows and say its a RPG!. Realism and saftey is one thing.. the the (new) sine wave isnt the TKD equivilant of that.. far from it! Besides.. arnt the practice of patterns meant as simulation of combat methods within themselves.. why would one make this practice to a point where it doesnt even achieve that! Stuart
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent "Yes it is pronounced in patterns as we are taught that patterns are a series of fundamental movements." Actually it is: "Patterns are various fundamental movements, most of which represent either attack & defense techniques, set to a fixed & logical sequence". Quote: "However Gen. Choi insisted we train with realism, so when fighting we have to keep that in mind." No not at all! Quote: "Now most ITFers don't use free sparring correctly or add realism in SD with resisting live opponents either. But then again, many focus on ITF Sparring sports rules, which is not full contact & therefore not applicable!" I am not sure I understand your point. Quote: "But remember even present day militarize do not practice war game exer"cises against each other in truing using live bullets or real ammo, bombs etc! I think we may be talking a bit past each other. Sorry for that. But I am not able to explain it well enough & TBH many simply do not like SW, no matter the type, range or emphasis utilized. Many do even know or understand their own ToP within their respective systems either. Gen. Choi we know was a controversial figure, beloved & hated. He has been slammed for his own training background, his politics, leadership style etc. His SW was revolutionary as was his focus on his ToP. Many have found fault with all kinds of aspects of it. SW is no different. In order to understand it better, we have to break it down to basics & that is hard to do via a venue such as this. But when you teach a student to punch, one usually teaches them how to form a proper fist & what part of the fist makes contact, right? Then we teach them many different aspects that all go into making a punch more powerful & effective, right? Now not all of these aspects can always be incorporated into every punch, against every opponent & in every single circumstance. It is the same with SW. I offer a different analogy: Firing a pistol or hand gun. There are all kinds of things that one must know about a gun & how to hold it, before they learn of to shoot it effectively, right? There are basics of firing a gun, like stance, breath control, hold, trigger pull, site alignment, etc. All of these aspects are taught in training & applied in practice against a non-moving target. However combat shooting is much different than firing at a practice range, right? In a combat situation you may only have the time to pull, point & shoot. If you take time to apply all the principles that will help you hit a non-moving paper target in a real life & death combat situation, you may not do well, right? So proper training with firearms is often like learning to fight. You learn basics & then you MUST apply them as you see fit in a real combat situation! But when a combat situation unfolds, you may be able to seek cover, take aim & apply all the principles to shoot with more accuracy. Just like power breaking, when one can wind up, SW & all, when performing a break against non-moving materials. But when actually fighting, you may be only able to flicker out a jab, etc, until the opportunity to land a more powerful punch, engaging more of your body! SW is to show a person how to utilize more of their mass & speed, that all. But like any other realistic situation against a live, mean opponent, one must be realistic in their attack & defense! Sorry to say, many ITFers don't mix the 2, you do with your traditional type sparring & other aspects of your training that is geared to be more realistic. I try to do the same with Gen. Choi's free sparring & SD.
hmmmmm If I may, All though I can see the analogy about firing a gun, as I shoot often, there are marksmanship principles etc. 1. The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon. 2. The weapon must point naturally at the target without undue physical effort. 3. Sight alignment (aiming) must be correct. etc etc If one did not work it would not be a principle, we would not add it into practise. I think that is Stuarts point. I'm 50/50 on SW, I still apply it and I find it useful in breaking, though I am willing if shown concrete evidence to the opposite, to view it differently. Raz
Sorry, my bad.. I was using my old orgs definition, which is a trimmed version of Gen. Choi's. Either way, by using the newer sine wave, it seems to me to be moving away from 'representing' attack/defence techniques and more to representing 'dance' techniques, for visual purposes! Maybe its just me (seems possible), but if patterns represent attack/defence technqiues... then sparring & SD are the place said attack/defence techniques are used.. so if (new)sine-wave isnt used.. why have it used in the patterns!!! My point is a) you discuss patterns, mention how the (new) sine wave (feels) like it adds power etc. then say b) but Gen Choi said practice with realism... then say about C1) Sparring adding, C2)but then many dont see sparring as in the way Gen Choi wanted it (all in, traditional sparring etc.).. and my point was.. it doesnt matter either way, as (New) sine-wave isnt used in either Trad type sparring or comp based free-sparring! I like things in TKD that are practical and enhance something, such as patterns. I dont like/dislike it on its own... it just doesnt add or do what its suppose to IMO. The TOP I know AFAIA didnt have 'sine-wave' in it originally and was based on natural science (ie. newtons laws etc.), as far as I can tell.. One can argue that under 'Equilibrium' (I think) it meantions 'knee spring' which some equate as a precursor to the sine-wave (something esle I disagree with), but it never originally mentioned 'sine-wave' and even in the sine-wave section (half a page in a 1000+ page manual/s).. it doesnt even show it like the ITF perform it today! - its simply a smooth 'up' 'down' (aka natural) transition! Thats another discussion.. but i have to say, Sir Issac Newton kinda got there first :evil: Sure.. but the problem is (new) sine-wave isnt incorportaed into ANY technique, whether attack or defence, when theres a real opponent!! I can incorporate 'balloon bouncing in a mild wind wave' into a technqiue when doing it solo... it wont translate into a 'real' applied technqiue... same with (new)sine-wave. All the principles taught for shoot meld and merge to make the final outcome batter - sine-wave doesnt merge/meld with the rest of it IMO. Again.. but no one does or can apply (new sine-wave) - its not like an optional extra that may or maybe not be used... it isn't, it cant be and thats it! So sine-wave is good for power breaking.. thats okay then! :hat: As (new) sine wave telgraphs so much, as far as SD goes.. its a bad way to teach about speed.. as for mass.. only the last portion of it does that.. which is similar/same to the 'original' sine wave or 'what a person does naturally'! So when we get realistic... the (new) sine-wave is forgotton right? Stuart Ps. for others using this, I use the terms (New) sine-wave and sine-wave to diffientiate between the older 'up/down' version and the newer 'down/up/down' version
