How to observe techniques to learn them?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by dcroteau, Feb 2, 2011.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Can't really help I'm afraid. I've always automatically mirrored what someone is showing me. Doing Mitch's TKD class would really throw me.
    Drives my missus nuts because when I point out she's got someting on her face I always point at where it is on her face rather than where it would be if she was in the mirror and then have to say "No the other side".
  2. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    That is how I will learn the entirely new hand movements I am being introduced to in my new kata, Heian Yondan.

    I will have whoever is teaching me stand along side me and show me (instead of being in front) then I will also ask them to put my hands in the correct place. This way I can feel it as well.
  3. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Some years ago I was given a tip - Sorry, I don't remember by whom - it was...

    Watch the feet.

    If you watch the instructors feet, then that will show you when and how he moves - when and how he moves impacts :) timing and body position - once you have those, then add in the arm and hand movements...

    Does it always work... No - but sometimes I find it very helpful.
  4. sangtawon

    sangtawon Valued Member

    I know this is an old thread, but was it ever thought to request things be broken down further?

    Separate footwork, and hand motions.
    Learn in in steps, then apply it in a static situation, then apply it in a dynamic situation?

    Also sometimes simply understanding the mechanics on why a technique works allows the movement to come more naturally.

    Anywho, this thread has had no new stuff added for months. Just wanted to put in my two cents.
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Try not to learn for more than 7 moves (or 6, or 8). When somone did the whole form, you should close your eyes and refuse to see that form beyond the 1st 7 moves. Repeat that 7 moves over and over until you can remember. You then learn the next 7 moves.

    When I was a beginner student in high school, I watched my teacher taught his senior students a form that I liked very much. I learned just by watching. Several months later, in one of the high school event, my teacher asked me to perform that form in public. For the rest of my training time with my teacher, he had never corrected that form for me. I stopped stealing forms after that.

    You should have the ability to train a form in your mind without moving your body. If you can do that, it's not hard to "steal" forms from others.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  6. sangtawon

    sangtawon Valued Member

    Lol when I learned forms I learned them 2-3 moves at a time in the beginning. Sometimes as many as 7, but I'd always ask to have those 7 verified as the correct moves.

    I would do it until I got the structure and the motion done at least decent before getting the next few moves.

    But at the same time, I was learning technique, moves, applications, and breathing patterns when learning these forms, all at the same time by doing the form.

    I'd do the moves as often as possible, think about them as often as possible so deeply that my body would react to the thoughts making my arm kind of twitch as I visualized a strike and my whole body would twitch towards it as though I threw the strike, and even dream about them.

    Dream about them to the point that I dreamed about doing a form. I popped straight up and punched in real life in the middle of my sleep, then went back to sleep.

    I have weird sleep stuff. I beat someone in a hands only fight once in my sleep. They were trying to wake me up, this was the person who taught me (my dad), and he realized I started blocking everything he was doing. So he really started trying to get me over and over again and apparently I started doing a block that I had never learned called cat washes face which covers a general area, and and I guess I felt an opening while still half asleep, and threw a punch. All I heard was "F***!!!" and I felt horrible as I drifted from half sleep to full sleep. Later in the day I was wondering why he wasn't wearing glasses, I broke them :\
    I probably saw him using the block a lot and it registered subconsciously.

    When I say half asleep, I don't mean the mumbling. I mean my eyes were close, I had no actual control of my motions, and it was like my mind and body were both active but separate. But my minds only ability was to be aware that I was being attacked really. I had no awareness of how my hands were moving. All I knew was that my dad was there, surprised, and I was smiling. I knew my hands were moving but not what they were doing. My dad had to explain the situation.

    The point in the above story, I learned things quick before because I really focused on it. The real point in the story, I focused so much it was more like my life for quite a while. It was everything I did. I was a perfectionist. I took a small amount of moves and stressed myself with constant work to perfect it. I became frustrated if I could not generate power in the weakest of movements. To the point that my body and mind could not fully disconnect even when asleep.

    Even when I did things that way, I did them in small bits. I broke down and separated footwork, hand motions, body motions, breathing, etc. I practiced them separately, then together.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  7. Quad Falcon

    Quad Falcon New Member

    Never take a dance class from a psychologically unstable kung fu master...

    [ame=""]Kung Fu Master Teaches Dance - YouTube[/ame]
  8. Demain

    Demain Valued Member

    Think of it like a clock. The clock hands on it can move and stay still.
    When you learn by fixed postures or in motion. Break down the movements each way.
    You can also practice forms with your eyes closed.
    Let your body get used to the new motions. ( muscle memory )
    Meditate before and after training. This will clear your mind so that you may focus better.
  9. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Demain, you're running round the forums offering advice that is poor at best.

    What is your background?

    We are discussing how to learn techniques, muscle memory comes later. Do you know how long it takes to obtain muscle memory. It may be worth doing a search, I have a thread on it somewhere.
  10. Demain

    Demain Valued Member

    My background is that I have been doing and teaching martial arts my whole life.
    Yes it comes later but you have to train regularly to get it.
    It is only poor for people like you that don't know what they are talking about.
    Stop running around judging someone that you don't even know.
  11. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Not a lot of substance in your last post.

    Can you explain the mechanics of muscle memory?
    It is no good making reference to it if you can't explain it.

    Forgive me but you don't write like someone who has a lifetimes martial experience.
    You said that I don't know you and therefore shouldn't judge you, yet you do the same to me in the very next sentence.
  12. Demain

    Demain Valued Member

    Muscle memory is based on gross motor and fine motor skills.
    Through repetition the muscles train the mind and body - neuroanatomy of memory
    Though the exact location of muscle memory storage is not known, studies have suggested that it is the inter-regional connections that play the most important role in advancing motor memory encoding to consolidation, rather than decreases in overall regional activity.
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    From Wikipedia, well done.

    And now in your own words.
  14. Demain

    Demain Valued Member

    When you train in repetition for several times, there is no exact set time.
    I would say at least 1000 - repetitions and months and years of training.
    Your brain programs the movement of your body ( muscles )
    It has to do with developing the slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers.
    You don't want to play the do you know game with me.
    I could ask you all kinds of questions about martial arts that you don't know.
    This forum is supposed to be a friendly community, is it not?
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Not to people who talk total nonsense. We take a very dim view of nonsense talkers in general. You sir are talking oft repeated garage. Repetition does not make you better. Doing something wrong 10000 times does not make you better.

    The Bear.
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    We are friendly, but have a low tolerance for asininity.

    Frankly you have done little to endear yourself. You post snippets of loose and fuzzy info, add a dash of arrogance and get defensive when challenged. Keep it up and it is only a matter of time before Kuma gets unleashed on you....after that it is Slip, and everything goes downhill from there
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In ballroom dancing, you start learning, box step, fox step, ... In MA, you start learning horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ... After you have mastered all those basic building blocks, any MA technique will be just to transfer from one stance into another stance. In all MA technique,

    - the hand is coordinated with the foot,
    - the elbow is coordinated with the knee, and
    - the shoulder is coordinated with the hip.

    When one of your body parts starts to move, all your body parts start to move. When one of your body parts stops, all your body parts stop. If you can follow the rhythem of the teacher, it will be easier to pick up his teaching.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  18. Instructor_Jon

    Instructor_Jon Effectiveness First

    Going back to the OP. I just want to pass that everybody learns at a different rate. For example when I started I had to be the worst student in the class, everybody figured it out before me. They were just more coordinated than I was.

    Don't compare yourself to others, just learn it as best you can, in your own time. Many of the guys who were better than me quit at yellow belt or green belt and I made it all the way to black belt. Not because I was better but because I just kept coming to practice and did the best that I could do.

    Sometimes the slow way is better anyway. It's best to do the technique the correct way 10 times than the wrong way 100 times.
  19. Pkhamidar2com

    Pkhamidar2com Panda Member

    Having just had my first ever full groundwork session a few days ago, i found it hard to get my head around the techniques and when the instructor demonstrated the technique it looked dooable... when it came to the actual practicing of it, it was harder... much harder.....

    So it really helps having someone of a much higher belt take it step by step, then practicing it a few times. That's what i had for my first groundwork lesson. All the older Judokas who had been doing Judo for around 20 years or so took me to the side, taught me how to do this and that, then switched with another black belter etc...

    Another thing is i found out that when it is being done TO ME... i learn better... not an euphoric amount, but i definitely feel an increase learning capacity when it is being done to me.

    So when i say im new and i just started, i dont know what to do... they will say to me, "ok you put one hand on my elbow, and the other hand on the tail of my gi, pull me towards you, and then push"... I try to do it, and usually success of the technique is about 15%, and 85% failure.

    Usually at this point i just say "can you do it on me, i understand it better"... when they do it on me, i understand it, and then usually success rate of getting the technique correct is far higher.

    This was also apparent when i had my lessons at the throwing lessons. When they did it to me i understood it well... and was able to execute it to a satisfactory level.

    Although i dont know how you can do this for karate and stuff...

    Anyone else have that like i have, when you were also very new, or even now when your quite experienced?
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Many times if something is hard for a person to learn, it is because the person is missing some fundamentals. All it takes is for the person to learn those missing fundamentals to help improve their overall ability to learn from observation.

    You basically need a teacher or coach to tell you what fundamentals you are missing and then have you drill them. Just drilling the fundamentals could become the whole lesson and you don't ever get to the techniques you first were trying to learn.

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