How much self defense training is enough?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Matt_Bernius, Feb 17, 2006.

  1. El Nene

    El Nene Valued Member

    The title of this post caught my eye.

    It’s a valid question and it has some relatively valid answers. I too am interested in what is enough or appropriate for “the average citizen,” meaning those of us not in the military, law enforcement, the CIA, mercenaries, etc. I’ll offer my two cents on a couple of points.

    I further qualify the how much to go with the “who”. This is what I mean. The average suburban housewife who spends 95% of the time in familiar surroundings, around people she knows and sees often, in environments ranging from the elementary school, to the mall, to perhaps the movies and the local restaurant row, may not “need” 5 day a week intensive hard contact high stress training. For these types of individuals I envision as appropriate one half day seminar once a month. Enough to get some knowledge, have stuff to practice on your own and at your leisure, without big athletic and fitness demands.

    Now, a person in an urban inner city environment, where you see and cross paths with strangers more than familiar people, I’d recommend a couple of classes during the week, or one half day, or at least a short class, once a week. This would go for a young person as well as a mature individual, because the odds for danger from an unexpected source would be higher in the environment with frequent transients and strangers. Younger people because of competition amongst each other and older people because of apparent vulnerability.

    There are special occasions too: I’ve told before about a young lady who was going away on a business trip to a third world country, and would be away a month. This person should get some short, intensive, and comprehensive training. A weekend’s worth, or several evenings worth, or more if the time allowed. Even the Military trains for specifics when it anticipated the need.

    Between the ages of 16 and about 25 I trained a lot, every day. I lived in the inner city and faced potential danger and harm in the parks in the streets, in the trains and buses, from unknown strangers as well as known thugs and bullies. I was also young and athletic, had little real life responsibilities, and was pretty testosterone driven. It was appropriate for me to train, spar, fight, and think about those as much as sex all the time.

    Now I live in a planned community with landscaped walkways and bike paths and a mall and everyone smiles and says good morning and seldom do strangers stray into our community. I have developed a program for the people types and environment I just described. I don’t thinks it’s as necessary for me, or those in my environment to train like we’re ready for world war 3 and marauding hoards approaching. Some self defense basics sure, sure good idea. Super stressful intensives with hard contact 4 times a week ad infinitum, sure might feed paranoia, and might be a bit of a waste of valuable living and enjoyment time.

    I recently heard from someone on one of these forums who trains his people in self defense techniques under high stress with shouted curses, strobes, sirens blaring in darkened smoke filled rooms, or something to that effect. For the average person, I’d say that is excessive and perhaps even unrealistic in its attempt to be realistic. It is appropriate for some, but not for others. As a side note; I’m always amused by hard core survivalist, firearms hoarding, tactical minded, weekend seal training seminar taking individuals, who spend most of their time in the safest suburban and rural settings. But then, it’s a big world with room for all types.

    Matt asks: "do you think a continuous RBSD program is overkill? Or an eventual dead end?" and, what would you do to keep older students "fresh." From my perspective the answer is yes. It makes for martial artists (or just plain individuals) that are what I consider one dimensional, the guys that only specialized in Kata, or specialized only in fighting, a weapon, breaking, etc.

    I understand that RBSD, isn’t concerned with all of what martial arts are, and some even sneer at the idea of martial art. But there are other dimensions available. You teach defense against attack and random violence, what about also teaching, as a separate yet related segment; basic medical management of injuries one is liable to sustain in a defensive situation, or how to help another with CPR, Heimlich, etc. Or, pleasurable applications of physical contact such as massage.

    Traditional Martial Arts have evolved and are evolving. I believe Reality Based Self Defense is a great thing, but it to can become traditional and dogmatic. It too can and should evolve beyond the idea that you are going to turn the tables on a mugger and kick his a--.

    I am a visual artist, a long time ago someone said something that I still look at what art (martial or visual) is through, he said: “True art is a process of simultaneous creation AND discovery.” When there is no longer any discovery in the process, that’s when you have stagnation. You may still be producing but it’s dead and dogmatic and looses it’s value quickly.

    PS. Thomas from a few posts back also makes alot of sense that sometimes everybody is thinking the need to teach and or learn "the upper levels of force." This could lead to disasterous holiday gatherings, lol.

    Rick
     
  2. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    In a lot of ways the suburban housewife needs the intense training more than the inner city guy. He is used to the idea of physical violence and probably has enough experience to have a practiced response. She isn't and doesn't and needs the sort of training that will prepare her for a new and frightening thing. The most common serious crime she's likely to come up against will be a particularly nasty one, almost certainly at the hands of someone who knows her, which makes the whole thing much more difficult.
     
  3. El Nene

    El Nene Valued Member

    Tellner, I'm not sure I agree that the suburban housewife needs the more intensive training. Being that she's not likely to encounter the unknown mugger on a daily basis that sproadic training will fade into oblivion in her psyche, whereas it would stay fresh in the people who know they daily risk those encounters.

    You say: "The most common serious crime she's likely to come up against will be a particularly nasty one, almost certainly at the hands of someone who knows her, which makes the whole thing much more difficult." True! And that's an area that most self defense and martial arts instructors, myself included, are not totally qualified in addressing.

    However, others have addressed it, and it is not dealt with in a "palm strike to the nose kick to the groin" sort of manner. The book: The Gift of Fear, comes to mind. I believe that book is good self defense subject matter. Learning the material in that book can preclude all the "yell, kick, eye rake" we spend so much time in. I make it required reading for my private students.

    Those doing RBSD, how much are you going into the the sociological, psychological, frameworks? Recognizing "Pre Incident Indicators" and preventing violence from a spouse, acquaintance, or relative...Hey, I suggest that is even more valid and effective "Reality Based Self Defense."
     
  4. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I side with Tellner on this one. I think that your response explains exactly why basic awareness training is more important for people who don't live in the situation at all times.

    At least in my practice (and Blauer's approach), those things are the fundimental building blocks. Everything comes from awareness and breaking a cycle of apathy and denial.

    - Matt
     
  5. Depends what your after. Considering that even experienced martial artists get killed or mugged etc. I'd say if you really wanted to be certain of Self-defence you'd either need a weapon, or to train regularaly.

    In my own experience, anybody who's done a bit of self-defence training is ill-equipped to actually face an attacker. I've been in my share of fights, and I've had countless hours in training environments with people screaming in my face and throwing punches at me and I still haven't quite got over the shaky legs syndrome.

    So when people say to me they took a month's self-defence course it just makes me laugh. A friend of mine claimed she knew self-defence. So she challenged me to grab her top, her wrists etc. while she locked me up, and then I said, do you honestly think that would work? And she said yes. So I grabbed her top again, bending my elbows and locked my arms. I did it with intent, and suddenly she couldn't manage to do these moves.... So she wouldn't have stood a chance in a real fight.

    I'd say a dozen hours with a Kubatan would probably set you up to deal with most people. For unarmed combat? I think you'd have to do a lot more.
     
  6. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    training regularly is very important. Sports MA is apart of that training. If you do Realistic self defene 1x a month while training is sports MA 3x a week as being good enough.
     
  7. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Self Defence, I couldn't tell you. You can NEVER tell how you would react in a situation, you can never tell accurately if you could even think strait, you can never unless you are rather skilled remember every lesson either. Some Wing Chunners are skathing in some vids of street fights because someone donesn't have a proper stance. You have no opportunity to think about that while your trying to stop yourself being hit.

    If you are trained well and remember only 1 self defence technique then that is a one more chance that you will be safer. A single day course I don't believe can help you much unless you are already a martial artist. At my school they taught us self defence basics, within a day everyone had forgotten or disregarded them.
     
  8. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    I believe people do MA's for a variety of reasons such as self-defense, enjoyment and fitness. Since I am 51 and no longer with the Marines my needs are different now than they were when I was younger. I know live in a safe city (if there is such a thing), dont go to bars, at night only go to the grocery store or on the weekends with the wife to a movie or dinner.

    At my age my biggest risk besides cancer is cardiovascular disease. So I do Muay Thai and BJJ for the exercise and enjoyment. Obviously in the MT I dont do really hard sparring because I dont reallly want the bell ringers anymore. The BJJ allows me to go full out. These give great conditioning.

    For self defense I did the RMCAT course and keep myself polished up on those moves. I also generally have a firearm in close proximity for the rare chance of running into armed goblins so to speak.

    When I was younger, go to bars etc, etc I did more RBSD stuff however,now my needs have changed and so has my training.
     
  9. We got a David Gemmell fan?
     
  10. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    He is one of my favorite authors!!!
     
  11. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    We call it "The Boyfriend Effect" as in "I tried it on my boyfriend and..." We've also had enough followup to see that the same people react much differently when they feel they are in danger. Much more savage. Much more effective. Remember the research. Most who fight back escape the crime. A short course gives a practiced response to the stimuli of fear and anger. If all it does is make the person more likely to fight it will probably work.
     
  12. No. She struggled and struggled. She tried all her moves, which although they worked against willing partners, couldn't manage to take me to the floor. I know people [Who are also friends, so I'm assuming they to have the boyfriend effect] who are exceptional at Aikido. People who can hyperextend muscles in my hands I didn't even know I had. They can floor me no matter how hard I grab them.

    The point is. This girl couldn't fight back. She simply wasn't prepared to face an attacker, and of course while she stood there clawing at my hands, if I actually was trying to attack her I'd have headbutted her a dozen times before she managed to do anything to stop me. In the end she just gave up.

    Self-defence needs to be drilled, and drilled and drilled and raised to a high standard of efficiency and for it to become reflex before it can be used properly. My dad was in the army and they did their fair share of Aikido and my Dad said that in all his years [Many of them in Northern Ireland] he has NEVER seen an armlock done effectively in a live combat situation, simply because it takes a long time to get good at. They're defence against grabs in the heat of the moment were kicks to the shin and groin.
     
  13. Dr.Syn

    Dr.Syn Valued Member

    you can NEVER have too much self defense training....
     
  14. migo

    migo New Member

    That's questionable, people hurt themselves physically all the time doing self defense training, and people also avoid getting into conflicts for their entire lives without doing any SD related training.
     
  15. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    There's also a point of diminishing returns where the time and money you spend stops giving you enough extra benefit to be worth it. At that point you should go do something else. Learn another language. Take up carpentry. Wine, women and song.
     
  16. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    Of course that can be said about all MA training.

    Self Defense must be trained enough that when you are attacked that your reaction is intuitive.

    I am a big fan of studying a TMA or MMA that contains alot live training in addition to any Realistic Self Defense The self defense should teach your art in respect to randomness of being attacked and how to apply your art to it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
  17. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Ragnarok, if she didn't try her level best to tear your testicles off and choke you with them she wasn't fighting. Been there, done that, bought the dit da jow. That's the difference between play-sparring (which the two of you were doing) and self defense.
     
  18. No she didn't try that... Hehe.

    But she did try all the armlocks etc. Or the famously useless strangle defence of looping your arms between theirs and pushing up.
     

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