How much kuzushi REALLY exists in aikido ?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Dave Humm, Apr 16, 2011.

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  1. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    ... I pose this question because, for some time, I've questioned just how much "ukemi" specific to aikido and the concept of "harmonising" with each other, results in aikido being (generally speaking) a purely co-operative exercise where, although we speak of creating and maintaining kuzushi as a primary aspect of our waza, how much of that is generated or assisted by uke - either consciously or unconsciously.

    I’m aware of the concept that aikido waza could in some instances seriously injure one’s training partner if they don’t at some point capitulate to the developing technique however; I don’t fully subscribe to that notion in its entirety. I’m therefore also interested in how much specific development should be spent on teaching “ukemi” meaning “to receive” waza in such a way that it is safe, but not to the extent of giving in to a technique without it containing kuzushi created by tori.

    I watched a grading only a year ago where a middle kyu grade had a yudansha for one of his uke. Watching what I consider the key elements of the kyu grade’s posture, movement and ability to control uke’s balance, the dynamics between uke’s ukemi and the quality of kuzushi within those techniques were disproportionate, this, in my opinion (which was expressed at the time within the discussion of the grading) made the techniques ‘look’ more proficient/effective than they actually were. I’ve seen this occur many, many times through out my years of study and it’s not unique to style or organisation.

    I’d be interested in reading your opinions on this, what your personal understanding of what “ukemi” is and what responsibility uke has in the relationship of developing physical feedback for tori.

    Dave
     
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Hi Dave, this is a completely uninformed opion I've made purely through watching youtube videos (which is never a good idea at the best of times), but I wondered if it tallied with what you post above:

    It seems to me that aikido students spend many years conditioning themselves to launch into a roll/breakfall as soon as they anticipate a throw or joint lock. It makes perfect sense as you avoid the pain of a wrist lock or the impact of a throw so, even at a subconscious level, your body will consider this to be a good "survival plan" and make performing such an action into more of a reflex.

    However, once you've been conditioned to breakfall every time you have the cue of someone beginning to apply a technique, it removes any motivation for the "tori" to apply the technique correctly, as the outcome is the same either way.

    From this persective, it's probably much easier to perform "no touch" throws and "ki" techniques on a dan grade as they've simply had longer being conditioned to respond with an auto-breakfall than a beginner would.
     
  3. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    kuzushi

    Hi,
    While there may well be an element of collusion between tori/uke [especially in gradings/ demos] any/all aikido waza [and in judo ] must contain the elements of kuzushi .How can you throw or pin a uke down if you have not broken the balance of uke?Uke should not fall over if his/her balance /posture has not been disturbed/broken.
    In a nutshell, if there is no kuzushi there is no Aikido.Cheers,Joe.
     
  4. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    I have my students practice a basic (and probably very old) eight direction balance breaking (i.e. Kuzushi) exercise as part of their first grading syllabus. It's a fundamental skill and without it even the simplest technique can become an exercise of either co-operation or of brute strength.

    I think the way to make sure that all your techniques involve 'real kuzushi' is to continue to practice it as a discrete part of your training so that it isn't just something that is part of other stuff and thus (potentially) taken for granted.

    From a practical point of view, the more people you practice with (assuming they are of different body types and skill levels) the more likely you are tp be able to perceive if you are applying kuzishi...
     
  5. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Hi Joe, absolutely correct, they shouldn't but, I've seen it happen more times than I could shake a stick at, and this is part of the reasoning for my original post, I feel that *some* aikido is institutionalised in this way of application.

    I too have been complacent in this very issue, it was made very apparent to me about eight years ago when I had the opportunity of teaching one of Terry Altoft's Judoka who cross trained at my dojo.

    His ukemi was off the chart, "exceptional", perhaps doesn't do his ukemi justice however, he simply wouldn't compromise his posture - to any degree - *if* kuzushi wasn't in and maintained. His programming through years of competitive judo just prevented him from doing so. It highlighted to me that I was subconsciously expecting a particular response from a particular technique rather than creating the required response.

    This aspect was one of the reasons why I spent so much time training with John Andrews in Skegness, an instructor (a much under-rated teacher in my opinion) who focused huge amounts of mat time to developing and understanding kuzushi. I found, as a result of this training that the effect upon uke was, at times, very different from the response I'd previously grown accustomed too; they found it harder to perform their ukemi because of the degree of kusushi being introduced - again, not what they were used to expecting.

    Another example of when I've seen/experienced this preconception of uke making ukemi rather than it being created by tori was when applying waza but pulling out of the technique before it's completion [for whatever reason] only to find uke performing their ukemi. this indicated to me they were far more than just one step ahead of the technique - that one step ahead, allowing them to save for potential injury. - Anything more than that is in my opinion simply giving the technique.

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  6. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    I've heard this referenced before, can you point me in a direction of more information or perhaps could you elaborate for me. Thanks

    Dave
     
  7. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    To give a moving illustration of what I’m describing; here's a video of shiho nage which clearly shows absolutely no kuzushi, uke is all but standing in exactly the same upright posture until pressure is applied upon the elbow/arm...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVODLLDCDdg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVODLLDCDdg[/ame]

    Although the directional movements of this waza form one aspect of shiho, the nage aspect is purely uke throwing himself into tobu ukemi. This is evident from the lack of musubi between both individuals

    Conversly here's the same technique with kuzushi (and musubi)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfuwPVOfGZ8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfuwPVOfGZ8[/ame]

    The attached image is a still capture of the first clip and shows the posture of uke at the point where the projection is about to apply. It hasn't changed much at all.

    Let me state that this isn't me having a pop at Dunken Francis (the yudansha in the first clip) I've met Dunken a number of times before his emigration overseas. I just feel this clip illustrates very well what I’m describing.
     

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  8. Shinkei

    Shinkei Valued Member

    Within the system I practice there is a Kata called the Koryu dai Yon. The first section of he Dai Yon is called shichihon no Kuzushi with balance break from Jodan, Chudan, Gedan and Ushiro.

    We also practice kuzushi with a stationary partner and how to draw your partner into reacting so that you can apply waza in a free play situation. Many of these theories area closely related to judo. Tsukuri training teaches the understanding of blending into ukes movements whilst they are trying to regain balance from a kuzushi application and apply waza. continue flow from one technique to another.

    The techniques that Nariyama shihan demonstrate below use some of the applications from the shichi hon no kuzushi.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecihqMs4lLI&feature=related"]YouTube - shodokan[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  9. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Thanks mate.. appreciated, do you have any youtube clips of this I could take a look at ?

    Edit:

    Thanks for clip addition Mate :)

    QUALITY !
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  10. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member


    Ye both those ukes are attacking to take ukemi instead of attacking to control tori and then being given the ukemi. Ive always had problems with the way tissier does his Shihonage, but he does other techs that just blow me away. One of the biggest problems in both versiosn of omote was a lack of any atemi. Uke should have and could easily have punched tori in both versions as he step in front. Very bad angles in my opinion and NO KOKYU either.
     
  11. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Drop a clip in from Saito Shihan mate.. Let's have a comparison.
     
  12. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    8 directions Kuzushi

    Hi Dave,
    This basic exercise is years old.I learned this when I was sixteen at a Judo club.I am now 72.
    The posture breaking exercises are not unlike to cardinal points of a compas.Ie North, South, East , West, and the points in between them.For those who do aikido the exercise of happo giri gives the same compass reading.
    These are the following :
    Unbalance your partner :To the rear.Usually a pushing motion.Uke goes backward on both heels.
    To his front[pulling]Uke tilts forward onto his both sets of toes.
    To his right hand side.Ukes weight mainly distributed on his right leg only.Minimum weight on left leg.
    To his left hand side.As above but reverse legs positioning.
    To his right hand side back corner.Weight primarily on his right heel to rear.
    To his left hand side back corner:Weight primarily on his left heel to rear.
    to his front right hand side corner;Weight of uke primarily loaded onto his right leg/toes.Minimal weight on left foot to diagonal front.
    to his front left hand side corner.As above but in reverse.
    If you want an illustration :
    First draw a cross.N/S.E.W.Draw lines at 45% angles between these cardinal points.If you then do this correctly you can then put a 360% degree circle inside the illustration.
    Cheers, Joe.
     
  13. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    Tissier Sensei Shiho Nage.

    Hi,
    Having watched the clips of Tissier Sensei Shiho Nage just my thoughts here:
    Tissier Sensei in omote absorbs Uke by use of ushiro tenkan thus creating a circular motion.Note that Ukes posture is broken to his front and his leading shoulder is turning away from the direction of Tori.While I accept that this is a form of ShihoNage I do not consider this a direct irimi type Shiho Nage omote waza.
    In the Ura waza version if Tori neutralises the Uke by rotational movement to Ukes rear /back, Uke has little chance if any of applying atemi[since Tori has placed his body to the dead side[Shikaku] of Uke.
    Whether Kokyu is present ? I would not be so certain that there was an absence of kokyu in Tissier Sensei performance as my Edinburgh colleague suggests. Cheers, Joe.
     
  14. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    Tissier Sensei Shiho Nage.

    Hi , all, [again]
    The clip shown in respect of Tissier Sensei doing Shiho Nage :
    The first Shiho Nage is done in a manner that lets a person see the whole basic movements of omote Shiho Nage. Same with the Ura waza . Both demos are a bit stilted and lack spirit.Its as though Tissier Sensei was trying to slow the action down?By the way this is an old vid clip.
    The applied Waza [omote ] is not the same entry as the demo.
    Joe.
     
  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Very good content in this thread, touching a lot of interesting areas from different perspectives.

    When time permits I will post into this more meaningfully, suffice to say that new contract in Paris and Mathematics studies are eating ALL my spare time.

    I havent been to an aikido session for 10 months now and cant find time for any training at all in any MA.:mad:

    Glad to see, common sense prevailing.
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Excuse my ignorance on this, but I was under the impression that there was a principle that goes, "stun or unbalance on contact". In Aikido, this would be done most of the time by employing atemi through a kuzushi for the first unbalance on contact (triangle/entry).

    I'm seeing a lot more 2nd (circle/control) and 3rd (square/finish strongly) use of kuzushi, but not the first done with atemi.

    Is this because of the way that uke attacks in the various videos?
     
  17. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    When I moved back to the UK from Japan about 6 years ago, I was asked to teach a seminar in which I taught mainly principles of jujutsu and kenjutsu to jujutsuka, aikidoka and other kendoka. (It's almost impossible to teach koryu via seminar media, because people cannot sufficiently digest all that is being taught and there is no barometer i.e. teacher to guage correct technique, posture, attitude etc.)

    At the end of the seminar I was asked to give a demonstration of the jujutsu system I am permitted to teach. I had no uke for this, so an aikido 4th dan volunteered. I decided to show a few bits n' pieces that might be interesting. I showed some torite techniques (These are basically offensive jujutsu techniques where you either attack from the front, side or rear taking the enemy down with a view to either apprehend or kill him, depending on context.)

    I noticed that the aikido yondan sprung like a gazelle and did ukemi to the mats at the instant of grabbing his wrist and applying kuzushi. I was rather surprised at this, since I hadn't even fully completed the technique. I did this several times and found that the uke was almost overly compliant to the point it had denigrated to pantomime. (At the application of kuzushi on the first technique, I thought, "Damn, I must be better than I thought!") The aikido yondan had been mentally conditioned to take a fall by his teachers for any technique regardless of whether kuzushi was correctly applied or not. It was rather frustrating, since even after asking the yondan to resist, he couldn't due to compliance being inherent in his training which goes against the grain of the budo idiom, jita-kyoei. Why? Because the tori in aikido is not given any real, tangible feedback to see or understand if a technique works or not.

    This is one of the major dangers in aikido at present; Being mentally and physically conditioned to comply with any technique used without resistance gives certain practitioners a false sense of security and idea about how their skills and techniques are.

    Kuzushi can be applied via atemi undoubtedly, it is one way of ensuring that certain techniques work. However kuzushi in technique is angles, quadrants, timing and correct use of angular force against certain parts of the human body, depending on the technique in question. Most can be specifically broken down to the functions of levers and fulcrums.

    http://youtu.be/MgdMpJcl7wI

    In this technique, sokumen irimi-nage from Yoshinkan aikido, the arm against the chest is the lever, and the hips act as a fulcrum. (A similar technique to this is used in several koryu jujutsu ryuha albeit in different contexts.)
     
  18. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    Aikido training

    If one is training in Aikido it is imperative to spend time using the three basic training methods, namely Go - JU-Ryu [Ki no Nagare ] These are respectively as follows Solid -Flexible -Flowing .The primary training should be Go-solid.
    This is where the basic aikido body is formed and refined.If one does not fully understand /master the nature of this solid training and tries to utilise the flexible /flowing methods it will be fairly difficult to control a determined uke.
    Uke should also train in a solid manner. By training in a solid manner good posture/firm gripping /zanshin/strong atemi is developed.This type of training also gives both parties a degree of feedback in their respective roles.
    Much later after Go training one can move on to Flexible training [ie both Uke /Tori in movement].Ki No Nagare [Ryu ] is training in a flowing /leading / blending manner. Ideally this stage is considered appropriate for Sandan or higher.I suggest any reader here should read Saito Senseis volumes on methodology of Aikido training for further info.
    Cheers, Joe.
     
  19. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Thanks for the continued input guys, much appreciated.

    Much food for thought.

    Dave
     
  20. Chris Banks

    Chris Banks Valued Member

    I think a lot of the time when this happens, it is because people are chasing techniques or the ukemi. If tori is only focusing on principles then it becomes difficult for the uke to breakfall until the right time as they are being controlled and kept off balance. A good uke will wait until the right time and use the throw to power the ukemi rather than rolling away as soon as they are touched.

    Training with judoka is a great way to feel if kuzushi are being applied as they will not sacrifice their kumae easily. It should be the same in Aikido, I will always fight to keep my posture this will force my partner to attack kuzushi or be countered.

    We were always taught to unbalance at misubi. Using atemi and of course body movement, sen timing etc.

    Basic principles of Aikido – Don’t get hit – Align your body – Attack kuzushi – all done with spirit, training this way makes the techniques less important and will make the uke wait until the right time to take the ukemi or risk injuring themselves.
     
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