How much does it cost to become a black belt at your club?

Yes I think it is pointless debating prices for a BB test when other things like local cost of living, comparisons to other schools in the same area, what is included in the price along with the bigger picture, including quality & other costs associated with training.
:bang:
Now on the other point underlined above, how is it a test, if there is no chance to fail? isn't that more of a formal installation ceremony of some type? To me a test is only a test if the possibilty really exists of failing, am I missing something?

 

No problem but I am sure if one added up all the associated fees for monthly tuition for the several years of training, all the uniforms, equipment, registration money, insurance fees, all the previous gup testings charges & any other hidden fee that may exist, $2,000 for everything is not a bad deal, unless it is a poor 3rd world country, jmo

 

IMO the MAs historically was a sort of holistic activity. I for one never felt comfortable with the injection of money into the scenario, as we know well the corrupting influences that money can & does have in certain instances. I am not advocating ripping students off, I merely state that in order to fairly assess the value, one must compare more factors than simply the cost of the test.
Silly example, some car repair places advertise oil change specials for lets say $25. Some include checking out many things at no additional charge. Some even include filling other levels of needed fluid at no extra charge. Others include a premium type filter or better grade of oil, at no extra charge. Some promise the get you in & out in 10 minutes. Some will only change your oil, but charge you for a new filter, so the price is not really $25. Others include a free car wash with the price. Some shops take the opportunity to check things & lie that you need this or that done now & to further drive your car could damage your car in a more costly way to fix. Others clean off your filter & sneak it back on.
So it is not as easy to just look at a price & compare, jmo

 

You are missing my point. Do you make your own uniforms at your school? I can almost guarantee that you do not. Do you make your own belt? Again probably not. And of course you can't make your own Kukkiwon certificate. So if you don't make the items that you distribute to your students and charge them for, then you must order them. Now, as an instructor in charge of ordering uniforms, belts etc. it is completely your decision where you choose to order from. so therefore it is your decision how much you choose to pay/charge for a uniform Same with the belt. The price range on uniforms is very broad, but you can get a good durable uniform for 50 dollars US. That is minus the striping that needs to be added for becoming 1st Dan. Belt prices work the same way. The postage to mail off for a 1st Dan certificate from the Kukkiwon will vary only slightly from location to location.

So, after my belt, uniform, and Kukkiwon certificate, what else should I be required to pay to become 1st Dan and why? I have everything I need! Everything else is extra money making additions that are not necessary! And what in the aforementioned list is the cost dependent on location? For the item requirements for my promotion the total cost will run about 175.00 US no matter where you live. So, the only thing left is the test itself. Now think about how long it takes to conduct an individual 1st Dan test. Surely not more than 2 hours at the most! Now it is at this point that I will agree that how much your instructors time is worth to come to a testing and test only you is dependent on location. So lets break that down:

Our school charges 40.00 US a month (which is by far lower than any other school in this region). We have 3 classes a week that are about an hour an a half long (and sometimes they start early and run over). So to determine how much an instructors time is worth monetarily, let's break it up. Since our school doesn't charge anywhere near the norm, triple the monthly fee price to 150.00 US. Now at 4 1/2 hours of instruction per week, that's 18 hours of instruction per month. So at 150.00 US per month that equates to an instructors time being worth a little over 8 dollars an hour. So for a two hour test that's 16.00 US for the instructors time. Since value of time IS based on location and standard of living, lets make it 25.00 US per hour, which is a 300 percent increase!. (and that's just to observe, not to instruct!)

So in the end if materials, the uniform, the belt, the certificate, and the instructors time have been compensated for, that leaves a final price of 225.00 US. Anything else you charge the student for past these items is purely for a profit. So if you are paying 800.00 US to test the you are saying that you are paying 175.00 for the actual necessary items to test and promote, and 625.00 US for the instructor and school's time, which is horrific.

In several previous posts, "prep classes" have been mentioned. If you have dedicated your time and effort and have been invited to test for 1st Dan by your instructor, then you have been preparing for this since you joined the school, and if your instructor thinks you are ready to test then no "prep classes" are required and are a way to charge the student extra money. If you are not prepared to be 1st Dan, then you should not be invited to test for 1st Dan. That is why they were not included in my cost analysis.

 

The tests at my school are always long, they normally split up high red belts going to first dans into one day and 1st and 2nd dans going to 2nd and 3rd dans. Those tests are probably 4-6 hours. The last time they combined the two, and it ran 8 hours! So more than two hours at the most is wrong.

Also, the prep classes are to get your endurance up for the 4 hour or so long test, I don't know what exactly they do in them so I can't say. But they are just a little extra for those who want it, it's not required by any means.

 

I think I follow your point & yes it is all about profit, especially in a commercial school. I am not defending high prices & nor do I fail to realize that there are far too many rip off schools out there. I am only saying to assess the value or lack thereof of a test fee must be judged imo by the total package or training. Some schools charge higher monthly tuition rates & cheaper test fees. Some advertise low tuition fees but tack on extra, often hidden charges, which inflates the cost. Some schools give good value & quality of instruction, while others take your money, regardless of how much. So I view total money spent, hours allowed to train & quality of instruction as a package. So if you & me train the same amount of classes 3x a week, with 1.5 hour long classes. We both pay the exact same amount for equipment, insurance registration or whatever other hidded fee that there is. So we are even. You pay $40 a month & I pay $60 a month. We both go to test on the same day after we both started training on exactly the same day, 3 full years later. Since I paid $20 extra a month times 36 months for the 3 years, that comes to an extra $240 a year & $720 total extra for me. But I was never charged a fee for any test. You though had to pay $50 for each of the 10 tests you took as a gup student. So that is $500 out of your pocket that I didn't pay. So I am now only $220 behind you. On the day of our tests in different schools, we all get the same things for our fee, certs, belt, uniform, whatever & live in the same general area, so same cost of living & the quality of our training was equal. But I only paid $120, but you paid $400. I beat you or saved $300 more dollars than what you spent.

So when I compare costs, I compare all costs, the total package, plus add things in like cost of living, quality of training instruction & time allowed to train.
jmo

 

Okay TKDstudent, I think we're finally on the same page, and I understand and agree with what you have said. However, the thread asked for how much you pay to go from 1st Gup to 1st Dan and for someone to say that just their test fee is 350.00 US, which does NOT include a certificate, uniform, or belt is absurd because you are paying instructors a large amount of money to do nothing but observe for a couple of hours. Even if the test is four hours, that's still 90.00 US, which is ridiculous.

 

You have already said that the "black belt prep classes" are pretty much mandatory. I can't imagine what causes a four hour test, but I know that time is not continuous.

You have stated that the "prep classes" are 10 one and a half hour classes. That will by no means increase your endurance enough to make any kind of difference. If you are out of shape enough that you can't do a four hour test to pass for 1st Dan (and I would hope you are not, after 3 years of TKD) 10 1 and 1/2 hour classes will not improve your endurance enough to make any kind of difference.

 

Ok, sorry in person I can be very long winded & via this type of exchange I guess long worded, which can confuse ir lose the message. Yes I also agree with you & have from the start. I just felt that in my POV in order to fully assess the value more fairly one must take into the analysis more than just a single fee in isolation, without giving due consideration to any & all other factors that can more adequately explain some disparities (sorry, there i go again, let me shut my mo.. - i mean let me stop my fingers)

 

Yeah, I realized I said they were pretty much mandatory, bad wording, shouldn't have said that, and didn't really know at the time. I used to think they were mandatory. What causes a four hour test? Many students testing for their 1st dan and the instructors checking everything that we learned since day 1. I don't know exactly what the test encompasses, considering I have never been through one.

As for the prep classes, again, I have never been through one, so I'm not sure. I have heard they were extremely tough, and that the tests were extremely tough. I would think I could be fine, considering I'm normally at the dojang for probably 4 hours a day helping and taking classes, I would do better than the people that just take two or three classes a week.

Yes, I realize how stupid it was to try and explain the prep classes and test before I have taken one.

 

So, if the prep classes are extra then you don't have to pay for them if you don't want to. Therefore that removes an added cost from your 800.00 estimate.

Just your testing fee is 350.00. What does that money pay for? Just the instructor's time?

 

800 is all the costs together, for everything, including the priciest uniform out of four. Yes, the 350 pays for the time and whatever else they need to put on the test.

 

This thread got me a-thinking about costs of different clubs and associations, so I decided to phone and e-mail all the TKD clubs in my area. These are the costs I found out:

UKTA: £6.00 per 1-hour lesson (no monthly membership charges), £40.00 yearly licence, £40.00 grading fees (including an additional £15.00 seminar fee before the grading - and you must attend at least two seminars per year. It was for this reason {among others} I left the UKTA back in 2003. Can't believe they're still doing that.) Wouldn't tell me the price of sparring equipment, though I would probably have to visit a mortgage advisor before purchasing it! £45.00 uniform. All students must buy one after six lessons - even those who don't want to grade apparently. I asked the gentleman on the phone "What if a student doesn't ever want to grade?" His reply was, "Everyone wants to grade." Ass.

TAGB: £4.50 per 2 hour lesson, £30.00 annual licence/membership, £28.00 grading fee (only grade if/when you want to), between £70.00 and £100.00 sparring kit depending on what you bought (seems like the same price you'd buy in any retail outlet), and £35.00 for a uniform (if you want to buy one).

North-West TKD (ITF Independent): £4.00 per hourly lesson (£5.00 if you stay for the second hour), £25.00 grading fee, £20.00 uniform, £30.00 annual licence/membership fee. Wouldn't tell me the cost of sparring equipment as students are permitted to buy their own choice of brand.

BTCB (WTF): £6.00 per 1 hour lesson, £40.00 annual licence/membership fee, £45.00 uniform (only grade if you want to), £40.00 grading fee, £150.00 for a full set of Adidas sparring equipment (helmet, gum shield, hogu, forearm protectors, gloves, groin guard, and shin protectors).

Please note that these are prices from individual clubs in one location only, and they are not indicative of other clubs within those same associations. I do not know what the set prices for each of these associations might be, I just posted these figures to show how pricey it seems to be getting and how various organisations fair against each other (because price will likely be a contributing factor in a prospective student's decision to join).

Here are the prices I will charge when I open my new club after my hip heals:

Lesson fee: £2.50 per 2-hour lesson.
Uniform: None (no uniforms).
Grading fee: None (no gradings).
Licence/membership (covers liability insurance): £10.00 per year.
Sparring equipment: Up to you where you get it from.

 

Thanks this is great & I think exactly how one should start a comparision, good work. The next step for a potential student or parent would be to visit each locale more than once see how the schedule fits in with yours & then compare the quality of instruction. If one wanted to make it to BB, they could also make those inquires as well. But it does make sense to do it like this & thanks again for going through that work

 

No problem, thanks for your kind response.

 

This is very interesting. I asked a question around fees a while ago (a year?) as I felt I was getting the short end of the stick.

I actually started TKD in the UK (club off of Royal Lane near Brunel Uni) back like 24 yrs ago. Gave up for a LONG while and finally got my rear end back in gear a couple of yrs ago. I'm now in the US in New York Metro area (NJ to be specific)

So my monthly fees are like $125 for 3 times a week (although I often go 4 or more times and nobody says anything)

So I will be testing for my 1st Dan in Oct. I got my 'testing book' last week - a big thick thing of all the things I have to do. Total cost to test is $695

I was ****ed. Then I thought about it.

First, I get an extra 15 prep session purely for those taking their BB. The test itself is a weekend affair. I believe I get a uniform, belt, certificate etc. All in all worth $700? Probably not.

But looking at my school this is how I rationalise it. Rent for the school is between $7k - $10k per month ($84k - $120k) per year. Utilities probably another $1k per month. Unsure how much insurance is. They have 4 perm instructors. Plus some assistants - to be honest I am unsure if they pay them. Plus somebody manning the front desk/phones etc

Now we take grads out of uni on at my firm starting at $65k per year. Assuming these guys do well they can make $150k - $200k in 5 - 8 yrs. I think my instructors have put in at least this much work - do they deserve $150k? Well I would if I was doing it!!!

So that's about $600k in salary, $100k in rent

I guess my school has about 500 students - lets assume they pay around $100 per month. That's $50k per month or $600k per yr. $100k loss based on my above back of the napkin estimates (the owners probably don't pay $150k is my guess). Maybe the testing fees cover some of that?

They also throw a couple of free banquets & BBQ's each yr

So all in all I think they live reasonably well, but they work 6 days a week in unsociable hrs (eve's & Saturday) - not something I would do!

Now I also have a buddy who went through the ATA program - when we compare, he seems to have been taken to the cleaners.....

I guess it is relative. Not sure what is 'right' - I personally try to look at what is reasonable.

Simon

 

...

To answer the question at the beginning, my club charges 200GBP for the 1st dan grading. At the current exchange rate, that's about US$360.

I'm not going to go into justifying it or not and what not. It is not "my" club. My instructor runs it, they're his rules, and I am just a student. If I don't like it, I can vote with my feet.

To me, the fee hurt the wallet badly, but it was worth the sweat and the stress and the emotion-roller-coaster that came with it. And all things considered, I'll go through it all over again.

 

As was said in another post, it all depends on the geographical. I live in pennsylvania right near philly and all the prices around here for every school are ridiculous. I take TKD now and I am in the BBC at my establishment. It all depends how hard you work at what you want. If you try your hardest and pass you deserve your belt. If you do not try and have the belt given to you it is not deserved. My prices are about the same as the topic poster. The kung fu place called . DRAGON MOON charges like 150$ a month and that is 2 times a week for 30 minutes each time. I pay 150$ a month and can go unlimited and get a weapons class to take for no extra.

 

Let's see...

At my karate school (Shorin Ryu), we do not charge for black belt. This includes testing, the belt itself, and registration with the Okinawan Prefecture (like the Kukkiwon in TKD or Ki Do Hwe in HKD). I pay 5USD per class.

I'm not entirely sure about the cost at my Aikido school. I beleive that the grading for 1st dan is between 50-100USD. I pay 65USD per month to attend classes.

 

Im in the TAGB and the costs are as follows:

£27 per month for 2x 1.5 hour classes a week
£37 ish (cant remember off the top of my head) per calender year for license
£37 for a coloured belt suit
£27 per grading- are not obliged to grade
£100 (more for men) for sparring kit, in TAGB sparring kit MUST be TAGB due to health and safety regs
Pre black belt gradings are £10.00 and are very essential
Before black belt you MUST attend a minimum of 3 black belt training sessions at £5.00 a time
Black belt grading is £150 (and there is only one place for BB grading (200 miles from us)
then on top of that its essential to have things such as handbooks for references ect around £25 a book.